Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#351

Post by rnd0 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

redconfetti wrote: post #231

0x_rs wrote: post #30

I heard some people having a decent time with Edge in the past with some features implementations. Not that I would use it myself, but I'm firmly convinced these childish plays only ruin whatever good work was done on it. Who on Earth would continue using a browser that has such hostile behavior and dark patterns all over the place e.g., buy-now-pay-later at browser level? It's so hard to trust Microsoft anyway, I'm…

I've stopped using VSCode and have started using VSCodium instead. Also, I dropped Chrome and Firefox in favor of Brave. Microsoft and Google both are evil.

You might want to look deeper into Brave, I'm not convinced they're not evil in their own way.

Personally, I'm looking into Vivaldi; though I haven't switched over yet.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#352

Post by alexiaya » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:25 PM UTC

coolso wrote: post #233

jeroenhd wrote: post #190

Back when Edgeium was new and just Chrome but with a lot of Google cruft removed, I actually used Edge instead of Chrome when I was on Windows. It was the same browser with some additional tweaks that I quite liked. Then Microsoft started this aggressive, disruptive push to bring it to iOS Safari's level as the only browser people should use. I don't know any good operating systems for normal people anymore. Windows…

> Then Microsoft started this aggressive, disruptive push to bring it to iOS Safari's level as the only browser people should use. Counter-point: my dislike of Edge aside (especially since it uses Chromium instead of their own engine, which is lame), Google has made an aggressive, disruptive push to switch people to Chrome for many years now, which itself has made some aggressive, disruptive effects on the web. Is a…

I don't necessarily think either is a good thing, but Microsoft is being far more aggressive than Google is.

- In Windows 10, they already made it harder to change your default browser. You have to explicitly open the Settings app and go to the relevant page (maybe if you're lucky the app you're using can link you there at least), and then when you try to change your default browser it will try to push you to try Edge.

- In Windows 11, they went even further: you now have to change the default apps separately for every single protocol and file extension, rather than having an option to set an app as default for everything it supports. The concept of a "default web browser" that's easy to understand for the average user no longer exists.

- When Firefox decided to implement a hack to let users directly change their default browser with a single click, Microsoft decided to patch it because "it can be used by malware to hijack your default browser". Which would be a completely reasonable explanation if we ignored the context this is happening in, but they're making their ulterior motive painfully obvious.

- And now, they're going even further by injecting unwanted and unprofessional self-promotion into third-party websites without the user's consent. It's quite different from what Google is doing, because they only suggest you to switch to Chrome when you visit Google Search, they don't try to stop you when you try to download Edge or Firefox from Chrome.

I seriously hope Microsoft gets hit with an antitrust lawsuit again, they completely deserve it. Looks like they haven't learned from last time.

If MS really cared about security as they claim rather than competition, they could very easily implement a popup dialog that shows up when an app tries to change your default browser. Heck, maybe even make it part of UAC for extra security. That way, it would only take two clicks and be also far more secure than whatever they're doing right now.

Also, I'm not entirely sure about this, but I remember reading somewhere that MS is also doing the same on Firefox downloads. While Google may somewhat deserve it (though that doesn't make MS's behavior any less user-hostile), Mozilla definitely doesn't deserve it as Firefox already has a quite low market share.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#353

Post by FalconSensei » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #190

Back when Edgeium was new and just Chrome but with a lot of Google cruft removed, I actually used Edge instead of Chrome when I was on Windows. It was the same browser with some additional tweaks that I quite liked. Then Microsoft started this aggressive, disruptive push to bring it to iOS Safari's level as the only browser people should use. I don't know any good operating systems for normal people anymore. Windows…

> Linux has been making progress but still isn't a good alternative for the common user unless they have an expert to rely upon when something breaks down

I'd say there are 2 main problems with Linux (for non-techies, etc, etc):

1 - They are not using 'linux', they are using one of the main distros, that can have some big differences between them. That also happens with Android, BUT, people that use a Galaxy S20 will google `S20 how to xyz` without even knowing how Android differs

2 - As mentioned in other comments, setting up can be a pain. Windows have enough drivers that installing it is just a matter of putting the cd/flashdrive and clicking next-next-finish. Some big distros might have sorted that out, but then you go back to problem #1 if they are the ones having to decide on a distro

3 (bonus) - Most people don't actually benefit from having too many choices, specially from things they don't care about. Usually they will choose a smartphone by 'it looks nice, camera is good, the interface is beautiful'.

For me, sounds like this could be improved if instead of recommending Linux, we (tech folks) collectively decided on just one distro to recommend to non-technical people. But I doubt that would be possible

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#354

Post by smoldesu » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

nyuszika7h wrote: post #348

smoldesu wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd agree if they still had 32-bit support. Nowadays though, even most creatives are getting frustrated by the vicious upgrade cycle and outright refusal to continue support for fairly modern tooling. If by "business" you mean word processing and web browsing, then... yeah. Chromebooks are also a competitor if we're bringing the bar that low.

Honestly, Apple (and Microsoft) should have dropped 32-bit support sooner. The only reason it's such a big issue now is because lazy developers kept building apps that are 32-bit only because "it works fine on 64-bit systems". The same thing happened with the Python 2 -> 3 transition.

That doesn't really fix the paradigm today though. A lot of people (myself included) consider 32-bit support to be essential if they want their device to run everything they want, and I don't really see that going away until there are convenient, performant ways to execute 32-bit code on modern CPUs.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#355

Post by themadturk » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

dvngnt_ wrote: post #217

mnholt wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> macOS only runs on very expensive hardware and doesn't run most programs people need (because the business world is still Windows oriented) What programs won't run on macOS that "normal people" are going to need? In my experience most "normal people" use a web browser, the Office suite, and maybe some Adobe programs.

games and all gaming related software

Many "normal" people aren't gamers. My mom and my father in law used PCs frequently at home, never played games. My wife doesn't play on her Mac (but she does on her iPad). I am also not a gamer, and I've been heavy microcomputer user (hobbyist and professionally) since 1984 and haven't played many games since my Commodore 64 days. (I know, I'm talking about "old" people. We're still normal.)

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#356

Post by selfhoster11 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:59 PM UTC

nyuszika7h wrote: post #348

smoldesu wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd agree if they still had 32-bit support. Nowadays though, even most creatives are getting frustrated by the vicious upgrade cycle and outright refusal to continue support for fairly modern tooling. If by "business" you mean word processing and web browsing, then... yeah. Chromebooks are also a competitor if we're bringing the bar that low.

Honestly, Apple (and Microsoft) should have dropped 32-bit support sooner. The only reason it's such a big issue now is because lazy developers kept building apps that are 32-bit only because "it works fine on 64-bit systems". The same thing happened with the Python 2 -> 3 transition.

A big reason why some people stayed on 32-bit was that 64 bit consumes more memory while providing not much useful in return when your address space doesn't exceed 4GB. In an era when you rarely had machines with this much RAM, 32 bit computing is a perfectly rational choice to maximise the amount of memory available.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#357

Post by selfhoster11 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:03 PM UTC

HeckFeck wrote: post #339

npteljes wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I honestly feel like the FOSS world is tech's last bastion when it comes to this stuff. There's a lot of bullshit too but it's nowhere near the mass surveilled dark-pattern galore the current tech era is.

SystemD and the Gnome file picker don't look so bad now, do they? At least Pottering isn't trying to extort loans from me when I start/stop a service.

The Gnome file picker doesn't look better. It's their competition that looks worse.

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#358

Post by brutal_chaos_ » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

0x_rs wrote: post #30

I heard some people having a decent time with Edge in the past with some features implementations. Not that I would use it myself, but I'm firmly convinced these childish plays only ruin whatever good work was done on it. Who on Earth would continue using a browser that has such hostile behavior and dark patterns all over the place e.g., buy-now-pay-later at browser level? It's so hard to trust Microsoft anyway, I'm…

Edge almost got me to switch to using Windows with WSL. No joke. Windows was looking good with the new WSL2 on the way and a browser that wasn't sucking. Edge was enticing as Firefox has been going downhill for years (still is, and I still can't find a replacement. Vivaldi was close, but is closed source and has some serious UI lag issues on Android). I, an avid opensource user and believer, was considering a switch back (I like gaming too, so that would have been a nice boost to ease of game play). I let time slip before I made the change and well, I'm glad I did. I would have run Windows for about 6 months just to move back after some "updates."

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#359

Post by jppittma » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #319

FredPret wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noticed the same thing. However, I trust MS less now than in the 90’s. Back then, I felt like the owner of my machine. Sure they had bad things like IE but I could just ignore it. Now, it restarts itself and installs updates despite me specifically trying to stop it. It’s a shame really because I really enjoyed Win 10 and even Bing doesn’t suck completely. Thank goodness for competition and the new M1 laptops! Now…

I trust Apple more than Microsoft, but if you want to feel like you own the machine Apple is much worse.

This is true on the iPhone, but I feel ownership of my Mac. It's just a unix box. I turned off tpm and have skhd and yabai installed, which is close enough to DWM/i3 for me. I wish they'd offer better out of box support for X, but this is honestly good enough

Re: Microsoft’s new Windows prompts try to stop people downloading Chrome

#360

Post by themadturk » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:13 PM UTC

kgwxd wrote: post #64

0x_rs wrote: post #30

I heard some people having a decent time with Edge in the past with some features implementations. Not that I would use it myself, but I'm firmly convinced these childish plays only ruin whatever good work was done on it. Who on Earth would continue using a browser that has such hostile behavior and dark patterns all over the place e.g., buy-now-pay-later at browser level? It's so hard to trust Microsoft anyway, I'm…

Windows releases always alternates between horrible and good enough. 11 will fester on some machines for a while like 8, Vista and ME did. Enterprise will stick to 10, and anyone who cares enough to fight dark patterns every time Windows update runs. 12 will likely be good enough for everyone to upgrade. 14 (they'll skip #13) will be garbo, 15 will be ok. Sun goes up, sun goes down.

It just occurred to me that I avoided Vista entirely by buying a Mac in 2007 (before moving back to Windows for Win7), and in 2020 I bought another Mac, which will allow me to avoid Windows 11.

Talk about timing...