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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#121

This is pure bullshit of the highest order. The science is crystal fucking clear: no one is dying from COVID![0] [0] - https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=over...

Can you explain what you mean? The link you provided shows over 150k deaths in the UK alone.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#122

I would be very happy if my government did the same. What a relief it would be! It's a public health measure, like public sanitation requirements, and driving a car that meets safety requirements. Unvaccinated people should be free to do whatever they want, short of risking infecting other people. Your freedom ends where your fist ends and my nose begins.

So your vaccination only works if others are vaccinated too?

That sounds like you're getting scammed,bro

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#123

I would be very happy if my government did the same. What a relief it would be! It's a public health measure, like public sanitation requirements, and driving a car that meets safety requirements. Unvaccinated people should be free to do whatever they want, short of risking infecting other people. Your freedom ends where your fist ends and my nose begins.

You might have a point if the vaccine fully prevented transmission or infection, but it doesn't.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#124
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be working from old info here but my understanding is that vaccination reduces the ICU burden. Assuming that's still good info, is it totally unreasonable to blame the unvaccinated for ICU overload?

Yes because no effort was made to increase ICU capacity which was continues to be the biggest issue

Training an ICU nurse takes about 5 years. The only realistic option during the pandemic would be to encourage immigration of ICU nurses from poorer countries, but that just moves the problem elsewhere.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

The spectre of exponential spread is summoned way too often. Yes, an epidemic spreads exponentially when it starts, but also it's self limiting after a while. The 4th wave is wearing of already. Every wave so far has worn off in every country, with our without measures. As a recent example, compare Latvia and Estonia in the past few months. The former imposed strict measures, while the latter didn't, and yet the two curves match very closely.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#127
As a foreigner living in Germany I could live with it if there were otherwise sound measures, but it's mostly been a bunch of wishful thinking. There was a rush last summer to open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early and a lot of people really understood it as "corona is over". Even this I could understand, but this year they do the same thing again! Surprise, surprise that there is a record wave now. People have mostly given up and follow no rules other than the most basic ones (masks etc).

I am also starting to think this country is not really built to work in a crisis like this. Regulations are maybe good in general, but this tendency to regulate every possible detail does not work when you have to change the rules every month because almost nobody really knows how to fix this.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#128
post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

No country in the world has the capacity to take care of more than “a couple thousand” ICU patients (well, it’s more like a couple of ten thousand ICU patients for the best equipped and richest large countries in the world, like Germany). Simply because “a couple thousand” is all that’s needed during ordinary times.

Yeah, there are issues with staffing and inadequate payment of the staff, sure, and those problems are long-standing and unresolved, but even if they were solved that wouldn’t be much of a help.

We would then maybe talk about a couple thousand (here in the literal sense) beds in terms of increasing ICU capacity, if that (simply because it’s not as though Germany’s existing ICU capacity is somehow ridiculously small, it’s quite large, actually if you put it in context and adding a couple thousand beds would be a massive increase). That would be helpful but wouldn’t really solve the underlying problem.

And either way: Increasing ICU capacity right now is not a solution. It’s completely misguided. Not least of which because it takes forever to increase capacity. You have to train people for that …

Unvaccinated people are to blame for this, but especially cowardly politicians who were too frightened to start implementing vaccination mandates right away (summer 2021), as soon as it was clear that you cannot reach good enough vaccination numbers just based on pleas alone.

We do have a solution for this and the solution is vaccination. However, in the very short term even that won’t be good enough, we need to break the 4th wave and for that contact reduction is necessary (and already happening).

Think about time frames.

Contact reduction, will show its effects within a couple weeks, vaccination mandates plus a logistical push for booster vaccinations, will show their effects within one month to three months, making healthcare more resilient in general, will show its effects within a couple of years, maybe a decade.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#129
post #121

This is pure bullshit of the highest order. The science is crystal fucking clear: no one is dying from COVID![0] [0] - https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=over...

Can you explain what you mean? The link you provided shows over 150k deaths in the UK alone.

The daily death rate is at around 100 people per day and that's "100 people dying within 28 days of a positive COVID test" - a meaningless statistic that does not tell you a single thing.

Plus, the stats only show deaths with covid on the certificate. That means they could have died from something else.

This whole thing is a farce. A charade.

Make no mistake: they're coming for your children.

Also, there are approximately 450 deaths per day from cancer - where is the government push to fix that?[1]

[1] - https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#130
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

I might be working from old info here but my understanding is that vaccination reduces the ICU burden. Assuming that's still good info, is it totally unreasonable to blame the unvaccinated for ICU overload?

Vaccination does reduce the proportion of people that need ICU beds, but there are pretty rapid diminishing returns on just vaccinating more; countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination. Also, vaccinating younger lower-risk people doesn't help because they're at substantially lower risk of needing the ICU even unvaccinated than someone older or higher-risk who is vaccinated and because the vaccines aren't really useful to stop the spread of the disease either. Countries have generally had significantly higher vaccine acceptance amongst older people who need it more. (Though I think one of the big problems Germany has is their vaccine uptake amongst the elderly is somewhat low compared to other countries.)
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