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100 years of whatever this will be

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Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#461

Post by kube-system »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #441
kube-system wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marriage is a contract. Governments regulate the enforcement of contracts. That's why they're involved. The religious part of marriage is entirely optional.

But the government doesn't get involved at the outset of new contracts between businesses. I get that government, via the courts, has involvement when there's a dispute, but it's not like two companies wanting a contractural relationship have to file the contract with the government when it's created.

Sure they do, in that the framework for writing those contracts is guided by the governments guidelines for what constitutes a valid contract. Just because a government isn't micromanaging the process doesn't mean it isn't "regulated".

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#462

Post by rustmachine »

munificent wrote: post #421
gtsop wrote: post #57

Excuse me for the dismissive tone, but this looks a dog chasing his tail. Does anyone REALLY believe that "things don't work"™ because the systems put in place are flawed? No sir, the systems in place work flawlessly for those who put them there, enjoy the benefits of those systems and make damn sure these systems keep benefiting them no matter what. As long as one doesn't acknowledge this very simple fact, they have…

> Does anyone REALLY believe that "things don't work"™ because the systems put in place are flawed? I do. When society produces large-scale negative outcomes, I believe there are roughly four causes: 1. Because human groups are complex, interactive, iterative dynamical systems, the system as a whole may have emergent properties radically different from the intentions of any of its individual participants. No one in a…

I agree with this, well put. Are people evil, or are our structures and systems so complex that we are unable to find best solutions?

Honestly, I think evil is a byproduct of the complexity of our society. There are no quick fixes. Everything is complex and very difficult. Trying to do large-scale good might very easily turn out to have very bad consequences. Its much easier to just be a gear in the machine, but the its the logic of the machine that ends up dictating the outcome - and when the machine is societies with 300 million people, its very hard to predict what that logic will be. Most likely it wont be good.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#463

Post by colinmhayes »

abbub wrote: post #308
colinmhayes wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I find it hard to believe there has ever been a better time to be alive than now. Obviously we've got a long way to go, but things have been continuously getting better overall, not worse.

I mean...based on what? We have more stuff, that's for sure. Our healthcare (when we can afford it) and nutrition is probably better and more consistent. Are we any happier? I'm not sure.

https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty and https://ourworldindata.org/happiness-and-life-satisfaction which show that the world population is getting wealtheir and that is making them much happier.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#464

Post by mistermann »

whatshisface wrote: post #438
samhw wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> none of the participants in the financial system have ever been interested in designing a financial system I agree to some extent with the view that we should see systems as emergent phenomena arising from countless participants none of whom understands or intends the entire thing, but you can go overboard with that. There are clearly some participants who have taken a 'God's eye view' and tried to re/design an ent…

Breton Woods and Visa/Mastercard were top level designs... But they were designed to make money. (For the US and Visa/Mastercard respectively.) Nobody has ever taken the "god's eye view" with the intent to be nice.

> Nobody has ever taken the "god's eye view" with the intent to be nice.

This is a really good point.

There are some kinda exceptions[1] now and then, but there are many reasons why they tend to not work (not short term profitable being one of the main ones). Despite that, it seems we're pretty short even on good ideas lately, like our culture has lost the ability to dream big about positive things (we're excellent at doomsday dreaming, especially about our political outgroup members).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#465

Post by neuronic »

jspaetzel wrote: post #306

All of this is just pessimistic complaining. Flip this and be optimistic and you'll find life isn't all that bad. Think about the last hundred years... * Rich people are still rich and poor people have access to more food, medicine, and opportunity then any time in human history. * Families have and always should lookout for themselves first. That's the way things work and should work. * Society is able to support mo…

Yea live is good on Earth with a massive climate catastrophe rolling in. But sure, the technocrats just believe some Silicon Valley tech is gonna fix it.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#466

Post by kiliantics »

teucris wrote: post #291
delusional wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the argument is that transferrable. As a developer you don't really live within the legacy systems. At most you're a politician negotiating between the different component parts. Society is different. I don't like DeFi, but I get what they're feeling. It feels like society has left us behind. Like anything we could ever hope to try is already accounted for and defeated before the effort even begins. You…

I think there’s a nuance here in the sense that progress happens both inside the established system and outside it - grassroots campaigns, protests, local initiatives, etc. I think the key issue is that it seems like so many smart people are looking to solve things from the outside rather than involve themselves with the current system, and we need to move that pendulum back quite a bit.

This is a strategy commonly known as "Dual Power" among the left, as named by Lenin. The far left have obviously thought a lot about how to change social systems and, if you are interested in doing so, there is a lot of good theory in their literature as some have thought very deeply about it.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#467

Post by kelseyfrog »

Zoo3y wrote: post #364
teucris wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there’s a nuance here in the sense that progress happens both inside the established system and outside it - grassroots campaigns, protests, local initiatives, etc. I think the key issue is that it seems like so many smart people are looking to solve things from the outside rather than involve themselves with the current system, and we need to move that pendulum back quite a bit.

and perhaps more frustrating to smart people looking to do good realize they are just one person. Huge, structural changes to society involve everyone.

This feeling of frustration is familiar. What helped me was shifting the way I approached the problem. Rather than tasking myself with manipulating social structures directly, I've found joy in teaching others to recognize the structures, recognize the processes by which their reality is maintained, and formulate tools to expose their weaknesses and dismantle them. Ideas spread like seeds in the wind. Our collective mental soil is so ready to accept them.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#468

Post by ska »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #441
kube-system wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marriage is a contract. Governments regulate the enforcement of contracts. That's why they're involved. The religious part of marriage is entirely optional.

But the government doesn't get involved at the outset of new contracts between businesses. I get that government, via the courts, has involvement when there's a dispute, but it's not like two companies wanting a contractural relationship have to file the contract with the government when it's created.

That's note quite true; the entire framework for those contracts is set (regulated) but the jurisdiction they are in. It's also why companies have lawyers on staff and/or retainer.

How much do you think it should cost a couple to form the contract for their marriage? Even a proper review of a contract with that complexity will likely cost a thousand or two, let alone making modifications. Times two, of course, as you would need independent representation.

I imagine that if we actually did this, fairly standard versions would start floating around and drop the costs - but the worst case of this is essentially the status quo with a few hundred in legal fees for review & education. Come to think of it, that wouldn't be terrible as it would reduce the amount of surprise in divorce.

On the other hand, it only really works in one jurisdiction so still problematic.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#469

Post by shebek »

munificent wrote: post #388
delusional wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the argument is that transferrable. As a developer you don't really live within the legacy systems. At most you're a politician negotiating between the different component parts. Society is different. I don't like DeFi, but I get what they're feeling. It feels like society has left us behind. Like anything we could ever hope to try is already accounted for and defeated before the effort even begins. You…

I 100% sympathize with this feeling too. But the pattern I see over and over again is: 1. Society is getting worse. 2. I'm really good at writing software. 3. Therefore the solution is to write software to fix society. That chain of logic is simply the streetlight effect [1] writ large: A policeman sees a drunk man searching for something under a streetlight and asks what the drunk has lost. He says he lost his keys…

What this line of reasoning seems to be missing is that society seems to be getting worse largely because of software.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#470

Post by nostrebored »

burntoutfire wrote: post #316
maerF0x0 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the reason we even have marriage defined in government at all, and thusly would include "gay" marriage (all marriage is marriage if it's undefined)... We don't have a government definition of prayer or baptism, but for some reason we have have codified that one religious practice into our government? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Also why do they get varyingly get tax incentives or disincen…

Marriage is not a religious practice. Proof: non-religious people get married all the time.

Yeah and neither are Christmas or Easter!
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