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100 years of whatever this will be

apenwarr.ca

271–280 of 924 posts

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#271
> I find myself linking to this article way too much lately, but here it is again: The Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman. You should read it. The summary is that in any system, if you don't have an explicit hierarchy, then you have an implicit one.

We’ve almost completely discarded “the establishment” because it’s so hard to fix. But when we lose that, we lose an explicit hierarchy and get the implicit one, which has problems that are impossible to fix. Rather than chasing a thousand new systems, we should be fixing the one we have.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#272

All of the current histrionics that we hear from DeFi advocates regarding escaping the evil centralized Banks and Regulators and what not -- you know what they remind me of? They remind me of what I hear from junior developers when they're tasked with fixing an antiquated, broken software system. These developers typically lack the experience and the patience necessary to fix the system incrementally from within, so…

> All of the current histrionics that we hear from DeFi advocates regarding escaping the evil centralized Banks and Regulators and what not

There are several different people that seem inclined to be attracted to crypto. This is just one and there's a huge crossover with gold bugs. There are also people who have made a lot of money or missed out on making a lot of money and have bought into the narrative that crypto is the future and/or they're desperately seeking to be in on day one of the next Bitcoin.

I agree about rewrites in general. Almost always, in fact. But I also believe in software entropy and it can reach a point where the current requirements are so far removed from the original requirements that subsequent changes can become increasingly expensive and risky to the point where a partial or total rewrite might make sense. But people also pull the trigger way too often.

Considerations for a rewrite:

1. Timeline. Will the current system stagnate for a year? If so, it's a problem;

2. Can a rewrite be partial and coexist with the current system? If not, huge problem. You reduce timelines and risk by planning for partial rewrites; and

3. Is a rewrite or migration reversible? If not, it's a red flag.

It's also why it's so important to build in the capability to upgrade the system cleanly in part. A good example (of what not to do) is Git's utter reliance on SHA1 hashes. At the time it came out I'm absolutely shocked there was no allowance for updating the hashing algorithm given that MD5 obsolescence was recent history at that point.

> And I do think that there are equal parts incompetence and laziness at play.

I think naivete plays a big part too. That and hubris ("this time will be different").

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the argument is that transferrable. As a developer you don't really live within the legacy systems. At most you're a politician negotiating between the different component parts. Society is different. I don't like DeFi, but I get what they're feeling. It feels like society has left us behind. Like anything we could ever hope to try is already accounted for and defeated before the effort even begins. You…

> Like anything we could ever hope to try is already accounted for and defeated before the effort even begins. Gay marriage, the fall of communism, civil rights, universal health care (in every rich country but one), women's rights. Don't forget about the very important real progress being made.

A very large fraction of DeFi supporters do not regard all of those as desirable progress.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Code doesn't actively resist your attempts to improve it. Our broken institutions are fighting to protect their kingdom

> Our broken institutions are fighting to protect their kingdom Three years ago I bought an apartment. I got a loan from a bank over internet and phone. The contract was three pages of clear Swedish that even I, with my rudimentary knowledge of i, could understand. The contract signing was intermediated by a person whose job is to make sure everything goes smoothly. In the end, all of the following was guaranteed : -…

I'm glad it went well for you :)

All of those guarantees are under threat of legal punishment enforced through court systems.

All of those guarantees are given to you based on good standing with various institutions. The bank, the intermediary, the seller.

If you were a person who was not in good standing with a bank, but you still had the money, could you have completed the transaction?

Technology has a trend of destroying middleman industries, as they don't provide value and take a portion of the proceeds for themselves.

DeFi, in this case, is targeting the financial institutions because we now have technological means to replace banks and lenders. Does that mean this process is smooth? or ready for mass adoption? Not necessarily, but the destruction of banks by technology is inevitable. It's just a matter of when

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#275

All of the current histrionics that we hear from DeFi advocates regarding escaping the evil centralized Banks and Regulators and what not -- you know what they remind me of? They remind me of what I hear from junior developers when they're tasked with fixing an antiquated, broken software system. These developers typically lack the experience and the patience necessary to fix the system incrementally from within, so…

I think Google has proven that you can change the system, dramatically. I am never going to try fixing an antiquated, broken software system. Just let it burn.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#276

All of the current histrionics that we hear from DeFi advocates regarding escaping the evil centralized Banks and Regulators and what not -- you know what they remind me of? They remind me of what I hear from junior developers when they're tasked with fixing an antiquated, broken software system. These developers typically lack the experience and the patience necessary to fix the system incrementally from within, so…

This is why I’m bullish on Chia. Their philosophy is quite plainly: operate within the existing regulatory framework and existing social ground rules (i.e. as a traditional capitalist institution beholden to the SEC) to provide and be the steward of a better backend and tools for doing (as the article asserts) the fundamentally distributed operation of processing payments and supporting markets. There’s a pre-farm that supports the company, they’re going to make a lot of money for their investors (which you can participate in too if you want). That’s nothing new and so be it. That’s the world we live in.

It is deliberately not, “burn the world we need a crypto revolution right now society be damned”. I don't like the term crypto and neither does Chia.

We need a modern ACH (you know the thing runs on FTP right?) and actual digital cash. And we need the people supporting the system to be “the people”. A decentralized ledger with a strong Eltoo (L2) ecosystem does serve this goal.

If you’re of the sane moderate opinion that we need better tools and that the ideas behind DeFi aren’t entirely worthless but still think society mostly kinda works but some parts need a refactor, check the chia community out. They’re thoughtful level headed players in the “DeFi” space. Refactor, not rewrite.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#277
Sounds like this is a generalization that the "don't be evil" motto slowly disappears and turns into "get money".

I get it, I worked at a company like that. It started out as connecting everyone to the internet for free, and turned into connecting the wealthy so they could be more efficient. The wealthy tend to pay more than the poor.

Altruism is unfortunately a poor motivator in capitalism.

Perhaps we need to write out the tenets of western society to determine if the system trends in the right direction and determine which amendments need to be created in order for it to bend towards good.

Switching from a capitalist society to an altruistic society.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#278
Freedom is slavery...

We're not all in the same boat. If you want to change the system, you're going to have to fight the people invested in the status quo. Most people aren't interested in the "greater good," even though they may maintain this position publicly because it is considered antisocial to openly say "f** the plebs," but actions speak louder than words--by their fruits you shall know them. When we see things like rampant homeless and crushing debt, we know such things are being said in private.

It's time to put aside our idealism and don a cynical outlook. Our rose colored glasses are holding us back. We just need to make sure we don't become evil in the process.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the argument is that transferrable. As a developer you don't really live within the legacy systems. At most you're a politician negotiating between the different component parts. Society is different. I don't like DeFi, but I get what they're feeling. It feels like society has left us behind. Like anything we could ever hope to try is already accounted for and defeated before the effort even begins. You…

> Like anything we could ever hope to try is already accounted for and defeated before the effort even begins. Gay marriage, the fall of communism, civil rights, universal health care (in every rich country but one), women's rights. Don't forget about the very important real progress being made.

Part of the reason you got gay marriage but not universal healthcare is that gay marriage doesn't threaten corporate interests.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#280
post #119

This article is profoundly insightful. I have been searching for patterns and insights in this field for 25 years. What apenwarr concludes is true: All we need is to build distributed systems that work. That means decentralized bulk activity, hierarchical regulation. The problem is, everyone wants distributed systems that require everyone else to agree (global consensus), which is literally impossible (see: CAP theor…

What is the pattern in common among all industries politics governments and culture? The article proposes these things are all interrelated but doesn't make the connections among them. Also for going to identify the pattern we need to have a common frame of reference. The facts have to be indisputable. >Everyone seems to increasingly be in it for themselves Everyone? This sort of hyperbole makes it difficult to ident…

>But I wonder if democracies have optimized as far as they can.

If you dig your powdered wig out of the closet and look back at the founding of the united States of America, their big idea is still pretty good. The article makes this point, obliquely:

>All we need is to build distributed systems that work. That means decentralized bulk activity, hierarchical regulation.

Having the Big Nationwide Things happen at the federal level, and the Not Quite As Big Local Things happen at the State level was a fine idea. You can't get Tennessee and North Carolina to agree on BBQ; do you really think they're going to have the same ideas on social issues, or how to handle them? It's all well and good to have nationwide building codes, but even that falls apart rather quickly. You don't build the same way in California as you would on the Gulf Coast.

Cramming everything into the federal purview wheelhouse is great if you're in NYC or LA, and you can't stand that some people in Nebraska or Alabama disagree with you.

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