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Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

latimes.com

51–60 of 403 posts

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#51
post #22

Obviously I support these kind of movements - the housing crisis is no joke. But every time I see an article about multifamily homes, I think: ok, but we really need is are hundreds of tall high rises with 500+ units, like in New York or Boston, each of which uses land much more efficiently than LA (2x more residents per square mile).

yes because new york is so cheap

And in general many of the denser areas of New York City are some of the most expensive while parts of Queens and pretty much all of Staten Island are less dense and cheaper. So it's by no means a direct relationship between density and cost.

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#52

As soon as you look at the zoning of LA, the housing problem there becomes clear as day, even for someone who doesn't visit very often. I don't know what you would call this system but LA's problem is that the folks that have the power to fix housing have zero interest in doing because it would hurt their self interest. Housing is only a "problem" if you haven't bought a house yet, once you purchase a house, all the…

Why is this a LA/California problem? New York City and all major cities have had high price housing that benefits owners for decades. What steps have Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Seoul, Shanghai, etc done to take their housing prices down to their national average?

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#53
post #2

I live in Jamaica Plain, a neighborhood of Boston, Massachusetts. Nearly every single home is multi-family, and the single families that do exist are usually $2 million and up. Take a stroll down one of our streets https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3130357,-71.1188873,3a,75y,1... It is dense, walkable, and extremely beautiful. There is no reason every neighborhood with duplexes has to look like cookie cutter sprawl tha…

That just looks like many older, low density suburbs (single family homes with some duplexes and ADUs sprinkled in) all across the US (especially older suburbs in the South).

>It is dense

It's absolutely not dense, probably less dense than newer suburbs with smaller lots.

>walkable, and extremely beautiful.

I'll give you that, it definitely looks beautiful.

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#54

Obviously I support these kind of movements - the housing crisis is no joke. But every time I see an article about multifamily homes, I think: ok, but we really need is are hundreds of tall high rises with 500+ units, like in New York or Boston, each of which uses land much more efficiently than LA (2x more residents per square mile).

There isn’t a housing crisis, there is a jobs location crisis. Apartments are terrible, there is plenty of space out there for people to have their own and not be crammed in like sardines. Cities though have the problem of allowing much more space for jobs than they have for housing. You don’t want high density housing in your city? Fine, cap your employer zoning. It’s a big country out there and people need to decen…

There is huge demand for people to live in dense walkable areas that can't be met because of restrictive zoning.

You may not want to live like that, but plenty of people do. We should allow them.

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#55
Good grief. Not everything is a "crisis". This type of alarmist language games needs to stop. This is less a housing crisis and more an entitlement crisis. There is an entire country between the coasts. There are jobs available over the country. There is open land and housing all over the country. It's more that people feel entitled to a certain location, a certain line of work, a certain income level, a certain proximity to [friends, family, or whatever] and are upset they can't have it. But there's nothing stopping people from making a living and thriving elsewhere, and it would also be beneficial for the country by driving a more distributed and decentralized economy.

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#56

Obviously I support these kind of movements - the housing crisis is no joke. But every time I see an article about multifamily homes, I think: ok, but we really need is are hundreds of tall high rises with 500+ units, like in New York or Boston, each of which uses land much more efficiently than LA (2x more residents per square mile).

There isn’t a housing crisis, there is a jobs location crisis. Apartments are terrible, there is plenty of space out there for people to have their own and not be crammed in like sardines. Cities though have the problem of allowing much more space for jobs than they have for housing. You don’t want high density housing in your city? Fine, cap your employer zoning. It’s a big country out there and people need to decen…

More people who have never been to Europe. Hong Kong vs suburbs are not the only choices.

For a closer example, visit Washington DC, and another poster recommended Montreal.

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#57
post #7

Montréaler here; I live in a neighbourhood which is uniquely composed of plexes - 3 to 8 units per "plex", with the typical number being 3, thus the term "triplex". Honestly, it's the ideal density IMHO. I get the convenience factors of urban density, but without (most) of the downsides of a high-rise condominium building.

We call them three-flats here in Chicago.

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#58
I am very skeptical of both the surveys quoted in this article and the purported benefits this legislation is supposed to produce.

Nobody wants their street to switch from single family homes to quad housing units. Nobody. Well, the only people who might want this would be those who are intent on moving elsewhere and want to maximize rental revenue. I would definitely do this because we would go from a singe rental revenue stream to four or five (the law sounds like you can build four additional units).

The fallacy here is that rental rates don't come down as a function of n --n defined as the number of units on a lot. It isn't a linear relationship at all. If I had to guess, the rental cost per unit might be somewhere around 50% to 80% of what one might get by renting the entire home as a single unit. Taking the low side on that and assuming we build 5 units, this means the gross rent income for the property just went up 2.5x to 4.0x. If construction costs fit the model, this could be a great deal.

Nobody is going to rent one of these units for less than the prevailing rent for similar units in existing apartment buildings. So, no, rents will not come down by a significant margin.

The other angle is to just build an n-plex and sell the units. My guess on that one is that you'll make far more on the property than if you sold the single family home. I would further postulate that the cost per unit will track with comparable properties and will not really make things more affordable. I mean this in the sense that you are going to pay per square foot whatever anyone is paying per square foot elsewhere in the area. This law will not magically create a 50% discount per square foot. One of the reasons for this being as simple as: Construction, materials and permit costs keep going up, not down. In very rough terms, construction costs are in a range between $150 and $400 per square foot (depending on location, design, quality, low-end, high-end, etc.). That quickly becomes a very real lower bound on property valuation. The ONLY way to make home more affordable is to, at a minimum, reduce construction, regulatory and permit costs.

And then there's the issue of what happens to a street and a neighborhood when you multiply the population by four or five. I am trying to imagine my street with 5x the vehicles. It is unimaginable. However, it goes beyond that. The sewage system, power, gas and water distribution systems were not designed to support five times the demand.

Simple example: Our water comes from a large water tank atop a hill serving this neighborhood. That tank, while large, was sized based on regional planning approved many decades ago, which, of course, consisted of single family homes almost exclusively. There is no way this tank and the system that feeds it (pumps, aqueduct, etc.) is sized to support a 5x growth in demand.

Similar issues with power and other utilities.

Then there's the issue of traffic. We already have high traffic density and glorious traffic jams in the immediate region on a daily basis. A 5x explosion in population would turn this into nothing less than a living hell experience. Here's a data point. Many years ago I had to drive 50 miles to go work at a client's facility. I did this for two years. When the contract started I could do the 50 miles in about 45 minutes --so long as I left at 6:00 AM. Towards the end of the contract it was taking 2 hours. If I left at 5 AM I had a chance to cover the distance in an hour. A few minutes later and it got ugly quick. It was not uncommon to spend three hours on the road to get back.

I won't even go into the likely in increase in crime. No, this isn't a judgement on the quality of people who would move in. It's a simple reality, increase the population five-fold and you will have an increase in crime. Simple example: More cars parked on the streets means lots more opportunities to break into them for profit.

The consequences of these effects are very easy to predict. In our case, if I saw this transition happening, we would likely build our five units, rent or sell them and get the fuck out. Seriously. I am going to watch this like a hawk. My guess is the potential exists for entire neighborhoods to turn into multi-plex hellholes. Lots of people will make a lot of money by making the right move at the right time. Others will be left in limbo. And residents will be treated to expensive, stressful and substandard living conditions.

This is also as far from "green" and "sustainable" (in quotes because these terms are becoming jokes) as one can get. What you want is sparse population fed by a solar grid and serviced by equally sparse commercial and employment centers (not centralized as a place like LA can feel) and real improvements to mass transport. Why does someone from Lancaster or Riverside have to travel to LA or Santa Monica for work? That's the real problem. What we need are incentives for businesses to spread out. Home construction will follow and will likely become more affordable as a result.

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what you would call this system but LA's problem is that the folks that have the power to fix housing have zero interest in doing because it would hurt their self interest. If they upzone my single family home lot I will make out like a bandit. Developers will be all over this neighborhood, building townhouses galore. The last townhouse to sell in my neighborhood went for 2.1MM+. Upzoning does not magi…

> Upzoning does not magically make housing affordable. Housing pricing is more complicated than a simple supply and demand curve, although that tells a story at the macro level. And truly affordable housing can only be created by mandating that units sell below market value. Can you elaborate? "Affordable" housing only works as a hack within an artificially constrained market, how is building more housing not the ult…

Of course it's building more. But the question is what kind of more. Is artificially changing the density of every Single Family Home neighborhood going to create a more that depresses pricing? No. Because the housing will not all be built magically overnight. Units will come onto the market after: 1) The developer buys. 2) Tears down the SFH. 3) Builds a new multiplex. The capex in each of these steps guarantees that this will happen gradually (also as people are willing to sell) and since everything will be truly new construction (if you want to double density, say) it will come out on the highest end of the market.

This can make housing more dense and it can gradually lead to more units on the market. Potentially you could eventually reach competition dynamics that depress pricing. But in reality pricing is also dictated by: location, style, build quality, schools, and a hundred other factors. This is why trumpeting upzoning as though it will somehow depress pricing is dishonest or foolish. Since you can't double the density of LA overnight (even if you can double its theoretical denisty), it's naïve to pretend that this is a silver bullet.

My greater point was that the conversation around "housing affordability" has less to do with zoning than developer incentives. Developers need to be given the mandate (and the incentives) to build sub-market rate housing as part of much larger developments if you want affordability and a middle class in California cities.

Re: Facing housing crisis, L.A. voters back duplexes in single-family neighborhoods

#60

As soon as you look at the zoning of LA, the housing problem there becomes clear as day, even for someone who doesn't visit very often. I don't know what you would call this system but LA's problem is that the folks that have the power to fix housing have zero interest in doing because it would hurt their self interest. Housing is only a "problem" if you haven't bought a house yet, once you purchase a house, all the…

> This is a small step in the right direction but California has really dug themselves into a hole here. California needs whole apartment blocks, not just duplexes, but apartments is something that is likely to never happen because of the above issue where no one will vote against their self interest

Incremental upzoning is what will get us there. So changing single family zoning to duplex zoning like what this does, and current multifamily zoning to much higher density zoning.

Going from single family to high-density apartments zoning overnight will cause a great deal of chaos, both in land valuation and also in political distrust.

California has actually built a huge number of apartment blocks in areas already zoned for that type of housing, and those have been providing most of the new housing supply in the state. Such places have picked up the slack for lower density places where exclusionary zoning has prevented higher density.

But housing has to be built in a wider array of formats because not everyone wants to live in a large apartment block. Today, even in urban California huge areas have single homes on large lots that should have the option of being converted to townhouses or multifamily dwellings. A lot of people (even families) would enjoy and even prefer townhouse style living.

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