The lost world of physicality • Hacker News Board

Re: The lost world of physicality

#31

Post by hessenwolf » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:25 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #27

jsvaughan wrote: post #16

Well, my 3 and 1 year old also have playdoh and lego, and love playing outside. And can also play Angry Birds. If the physical world is being 'lost' then an alternative cause (in the UK at least) might be the amount of it available per person because of increased densities of living. Wolfram Alpha shows: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+population+density 2011 - 663 people per square mile 1911 - 425 people per…

One thing to note is that access to "wild" land in the UK is generally a lot easier today than it would have been in 1911. The high level population density in the UK is pretty misleading because quite significant chunks of the country are fairly lightly populated - making us all cram into what parts are left (e.g. the Central Belt of Scotland).

Wouldn't that mean the population density is underestimated?

Re: The lost world of physicality

#32

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:25 PM UTC

revorad wrote: post #24

wladimir wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just baseless ranting (well, not all the time), as he does provide arguments. But he's very contrarian in this day and age. His views sometimes border on Luddism :-) But there is some truth in it. In a way, in our quest for efficiency, comfort and safety, we are losing touch with nature, and even with the physical world. I feel that as we become more dependent on technology we become more like domesticated p…

I didn't want to call him a Luddite, as that seems rude, but I'd have to agree with you. Of course there is some truth in saying that technology has some unwanted effects on our lives. But, the question is what alternatives or solutions does he propose, if any? You can improve the world by solving problems for a lot of people or you can improve it by writing books about problems which new solutions may or may not cre…

[deleted]

Re: The lost world of physicality

#33

Post by wladimir » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:25 PM UTC

revorad wrote: post #24

wladimir wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just baseless ranting (well, not all the time), as he does provide arguments. But he's very contrarian in this day and age. His views sometimes border on Luddism :-) But there is some truth in it. In a way, in our quest for efficiency, comfort and safety, we are losing touch with nature, and even with the physical world. I feel that as we become more dependent on technology we become more like domesticated p…

I didn't want to call him a Luddite, as that seems rude, but I'd have to agree with you. Of course there is some truth in saying that technology has some unwanted effects on our lives. But, the question is what alternatives or solutions does he propose, if any? You can improve the world by solving problems for a lot of people or you can improve it by writing books about problems which new solutions may or may not cre…

Sometimes describing a problem can be useful, even if you don't have a solution ready. But that's only the first step...

He's not a luddite; I think the alternative that he poses is to be more suspicious of technology and the companies that push it, judge its merits and disadvantages on a case-by-case basis. Not to entirely reject it.

Re: The lost world of physicality

#34

Post by wladimir » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:29 PM UTC

mootothemax wrote: post #12

Real worlds are filled with dirt, hazards, sensation, pleasure, effort and more. The virtual world is clean, colourful, free of danger and effortless. Heh, and then come along malware authors, spammers and scammers. I doubt virtual worlds will be entire free of danger; just as it's possible to break a leg through stupidity, I imagine it'll still be just as easy to delete C:\Windows ;)

Yes, the virtual world is in no way safer, cleaner than the real world. And certainly not always more colorful. It's a bit of a misconception based on the fairytale told by marketing departments of tech companies, which try to push their happy-go-lucky walled-garden virtual worlds.

Re: The lost world of physicality

#35

Post by suprasanna » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:30 PM UTC

ristretto wrote: post #22

Actually the difference is not that big. It's all in our brain anyway, and most virtual experiences evoke similar brain responses as real ones (theater, TV, cinema, mirror neurons etc). What virtual items lose is fine properties like touch, smell, permanence etc. I think the bigger problem is both city planning and immobile technology: most of us are forced to live packed away from the nature in cities planned for th…

You bring up some good points with the parallels in the brain however I think more is lost in the exposure to different experiences that you simply can't replicate online.

For most, it'll be difficult to differentiate between things (physical books, library visits, spending time outdoors, etc) that we don't want to leave behind for nostalgic reasons and things that we shouldn't leave behind because they help us with maturity, growth, etc.

I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on this. Technological change is a part of society, yes, but is it always best for the individual?

Re: The lost world of physicality

#36

Post by sheeps » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:30 PM UTC

joshklein wrote: post #29

The OP would do well to read "Walden" by Henry David Thoreau or, perhaps more pointedly, read up on the teachings of Epicurus[1]. And, more generally, I highly recommend "The Pleasures and Sorrows of Work" by Alain De Botton. And then there's the defining entry from 1960's philosophy, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Persig, which is precisely about the intersection between nature and technology. These…

Another relevant one is E.M. Forster's "The Machine Stops":

http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/prajlich/forster.html

Re: The lost world of physicality

#37

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:33 PM UTC

revorad wrote: post #3

Some quick reactions: To have a fair discussion, you would have to look at both the problems and benefits of losing physicality. There is a danger of clinging on it to it purely for nostalgia, which I think is largely the case with books. My hunch is that kids' imagination will actually expand with virtual worlds. Another advantage is they will be better educated. Like my wife says, "I wish I had Google when I was a…

Rationalization? Its very much a part of our physical development to interact with the world. Also emotional formation like empathy depends upon experiencing physically the results of your actions.

Things we lose by losing physicality:

Reading, hearing stories read to you.

Interacting with others over the media you view.

Spending time in a single environment stimulates imagination, sensory acuity

Respect for the physical world - it hurts to wreck your car, shoot a man, insult someone face-to-face

The lies your parents told you (mine anyway) were designed to simplify the world for a 5-year-old. This is necessary. They are moldable, easily confused and frightened. Let the world occur to them in easy stages, not as a fire-hose of internet weirdness.

Ultimately I fear a world of socially-inept fat autistic young adults.

The cure? Go fishing. Barefoot if possible.

Re: The lost world of physicality

#38

Post by jgrahamc » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:34 PM UTC

sheeps wrote: post #36

joshklein wrote: post #29

The OP would do well to read "Walden" by Henry David Thoreau or, perhaps more pointedly, read up on the teachings of Epicurus[1]. And, more generally, I highly recommend "The Pleasures and Sorrows of Work" by Alain De Botton. And then there's the defining entry from 1960's philosophy, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Persig, which is precisely about the intersection between nature and technology. These…

Another relevant one is E.M. Forster's "The Machine Stops": http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/prajlich/forster.html

Thank you both for these suggestions. I recall reading E. M. Forster's story at school and my contribution to English class was that he was wrong about there being a separate button for everything: in reality things would have been multiplexed and the person would have used a keypad or similar :-)

I have not read Walden. Will put it on my Kindle.

Re: The lost world of physicality

#39

Post by BenSS » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:49 PM UTC

I have to balance my long sessions of hacking and screen time with something physical. Gym, home projects, or something that's making my body work too. I know others have experienced the same thing, with different solutions.

Loving the virtual and code isn't a problem, as long as there's an offline component to balance things.

Re: The lost world of physicality

#40

Post by paulnelligan » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:53 PM UTC

Hisoka wrote: post #25

A side effect of losing touch with the physical world is that it wrecks your brain. You begin to feel isolated from the rest of the world. What doesn't help is the growth of cities, and overpopulation. We start to view other people as competitors and enemies. Have you ever gone through some days when you encounter many people, whether it's in a commute, or whatever and ask why people are so useless in your life? What…

I don't think that being a member of a tribe enabled anyone to save the world, just their village and their families. I would argue that the internet has empowered far more people than ever.

I get the Author's point, however I think he's overexaggerating by a long shot. Kids still play with lego, adults still buy books, and certainly do still have real sex with actual people - in fact they can't get enough of it!