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The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

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Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do you prefer the world as it is under coronavirus restrictions? What present restrictions are you referring to? Could you list a few of the most onerous ones? I know there mask mandates in lots of places currently, and I know earlier in the pandemic there were severe restrictions on gathering indoors and such (and I'm not here to defend or condemn them), but what restrictions are there besides mask mandates that a…

I am in the US. Where I live masks are required indoors under all circumstances regardless of vaccine status. Indoor dining has been allowed for a few months now but there’s talk of introducing restrictions again. It’s not so much how it is today, it’s the damage yesterday had done. And it’s the sword of Damocles that hangs over us all at the whisper of a new variant

Your mask isn't fitting right if it is fogging your glasses. Check for tips on fitting or other solutions like medical tape over nose bridge.

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do you prefer the world as it is under coronavirus restrictions? What present restrictions are you referring to? Could you list a few of the most onerous ones? I know there mask mandates in lots of places currently, and I know earlier in the pandemic there were severe restrictions on gathering indoors and such (and I'm not here to defend or condemn them), but what restrictions are there besides mask mandates that a…

I am in the US. Where I live masks are required indoors under all circumstances regardless of vaccine status. Indoor dining has been allowed for a few months now but there’s talk of introducing restrictions again. It’s not so much how it is today, it’s the damage yesterday had done. And it’s the sword of Damocles that hangs over us all at the whisper of a new variant

I would move to Arizona, COVID was only there for a few weeks. Phoenix is over it completely.

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do you prefer the world as it is under coronavirus restrictions? What present restrictions are you referring to? Could you list a few of the most onerous ones? I know there mask mandates in lots of places currently, and I know earlier in the pandemic there were severe restrictions on gathering indoors and such (and I'm not here to defend or condemn them), but what restrictions are there besides mask mandates that a…

I am in the US. Where I live masks are required indoors under all circumstances regardless of vaccine status. Indoor dining has been allowed for a few months now but there’s talk of introducing restrictions again. It’s not so much how it is today, it’s the damage yesterday had done. And it’s the sword of Damocles that hangs over us all at the whisper of a new variant

Okay that changes things a lot then. I'm sorry for everything you had to go through, and I'll try to respond to your main points, but just note that I don't fall neatly into whatever side of the issue you might imagine (regardless of what it might look like from my brief replies here):

> Where I live masks are required indoors under all circumstances regardless of vaccine status.

I assume there are extremely reasonable constraints you haven't mentioned (e.g., I don't imagine you have to wear masks in your own house, nor would I guess the government is forcing you to wear masks when you visit your friends' homes), so with that in mind:

My own take on indoor mask mandates is: no I don't like them, and yes fogging glasses is annoying, but I could say the same thing about red traffic lights. I hate them so much and find them frustrating, yet I still understand & respect both of them regardless, and try to move on with my life. In neither case do I find there to be so much burden that I can't tolerate living this life anymore, though I can understand that for people with e.g. breathing difficulties the case might be different (and I hope/expect they would have been able to been accommodated accordingly).

> there’s talk of introducing restrictions again.

I'm not sure preventing people from "talking" about restrictions would result in a better world, so I'm not sure what alternative you're proposing here. Yes it's frustrating, but that's what we get with democracy and free speech. All I can suggest is that tuning out the news would probably be helpful if you're finding it overwhelming.

> It’s not so much how it is today, it’s the damage yesterday had done.

Vaccines became available to most adults around April/May, and by June states had started lifting many restrictions. I think it was literally beginning of June where even in liberal Massachusetts a ton of people took off their masks in (crowded!) malls as soon as the mandates lifted. So I'm not sure during what time period you believe the government imposed unjustifiably onerous restrictions. If you're talking about those few weeks in the span of those few weeks, I don't think a few extra weeks made the difference here. If you're talking about afterward, I'm not aware of particularly onerous/lasting restrictions (see above). And if you're talking about before vaccine availability, no, I don't think many people liked that world, but I don't find it at all obvious that letting the pandemic just burn through the entire population would've been better, or that letting potentially infected people walk into ERs amidst other patients with compromised health would have been a wise decision. I know >700,000 people have died in the US so far due to the pandemic, and that number would've been far larger if they had let it grow exponentially, so that factor needs to be considered. (I'm sorry for your loss; I realize this is probably difficult to read. I'm just trying to reply since you were requesting that.)

Of course, if we had the same restrictions today as we had pre-vaccines, that would've been quite a different story.

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry to hear for your father. I do love remote meetings though, I can mute myself and go do something else.

> I can mute myself and go do something else. That's exactly what Jeffrey Toobin said as well :P

hahaha, was worth google'ing it

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in the US. Where I live masks are required indoors under all circumstances regardless of vaccine status. Indoor dining has been allowed for a few months now but there’s talk of introducing restrictions again. It’s not so much how it is today, it’s the damage yesterday had done. And it’s the sword of Damocles that hangs over us all at the whisper of a new variant

Okay that changes things a lot then. I'm sorry for everything you had to go through, and I'll try to respond to your main points, but just note that I don't fall neatly into whatever side of the issue you might imagine (regardless of what it might look like from my brief replies here): > Where I live masks are required indoors under all circumstances regardless of vaccine status. I assume there are extremely reasonab…

This seems like an incredibly insensitive response. It's basically "come on, it's not so bad".

I agree with OP. These restrictions are incredibly disruptive to every day life and causing plenty of mental strain. If there was some end game, then people could put on a stiff upper lip. But it's clear there isn't one.

We've gone from "2 weeks to bend the curve" to "vaccines will allow us to return to normality" to "well the vaccinated are still getting infected" to "everyone needs a booster" and now "well, the vaccine might not work that well with the new variant, so hold tight".

We're coming up to the 2 year mark. It seems pretty clear to me that the present approach mean we we are likely looking at years of continuing restrictions that wax and wane. If you asked people what the summer of 2022 will be like, anyone who says they know is lying to themselves.

I'm guessing we'll still be dealing with masks, vaccine boosters, travel restrictions and disruptions to work and school 2 years from now.

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#36
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay that changes things a lot then. I'm sorry for everything you had to go through, and I'll try to respond to your main points, but just note that I don't fall neatly into whatever side of the issue you might imagine (regardless of what it might look like from my brief replies here): > Where I live masks are required indoors under all circumstances regardless of vaccine status. I assume there are extremely reasonab…

This seems like an incredibly insensitive response. It's basically "come on, it's not so bad". I agree with OP. These restrictions are incredibly disruptive to every day life and causing plenty of mental strain. If there was some end game, then people could put on a stiff upper lip. But it's clear there isn't one. We've gone from "2 weeks to bend the curve" to "vaccines will allow us to return to normality" to "well…

> These restrictions

By the OP's own admission this is only "wearing masks" right now. That's what I was referring to. When you use "restrictions" so broadly you make the burden sound far more severe than what it is in reality to many people: "I have to wear masks indoors when in public."

I feel like even if you think mask mandates are actually a big deal and too much for a human to intolerable, you should be able to understand why others (like me) genuinely don't see them that way?

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#37
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an incredibly insensitive response. It's basically "come on, it's not so bad". I agree with OP. These restrictions are incredibly disruptive to every day life and causing plenty of mental strain. If there was some end game, then people could put on a stiff upper lip. But it's clear there isn't one. We've gone from "2 weeks to bend the curve" to "vaccines will allow us to return to normality" to "well…

> These restrictions By the OP's own admission this is only "wearing masks" right now. That's what I was referring to. When you use "restrictions" so broadly you make the burden sound far more severe than what it is in reality to many people: "I have to wear masks indoors when in public." I feel like even if you think mask mandates are actually a big deal and too much for a human to intolerable, you should be able to…

His description is clearly about more than masks. You can't say "what's the big deal with masks" all the while ignoring everything that's happened over the past 2 years and will likely continue into the near future.

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#38

I mean this question with all respect. For those of you who error towards caution with COVID, do you prefer the world as it is under coronavirus restrictions? Again I am asking this with sincerity, if we could blink away COVID but keep the world as it is (remote work, limited travel, acceptable reason for isolation etc.) would you prefer that world? I hate the world COVID has created . I hate seeing everything throug…

Sounds like you’re having a rough time. I feel for you, pro or against Covid. There is definitely a cost to all this and it must be taken into account.

That said, there is a light at the end of this tunnel. Life in the UK, where vaccination rates are very high, is pretty much normal. Everything is open. Masks were optional until the Omicron scare, we’ll see how it goes. Nurseries, cinemas, restaurants all open, pretty much as normal (cleaner than in the past which is a win).

Maybe it will get worse again but let’s hope not.

Without making hyperbolic comparisons, life is much better net than it was under Bubonic Plague. We’ve seen the alternative to paranoid infection regimes, and it’s total chaos and overwhelmed hospitals. So we’ve been dealt a shit hand and trying to play is as best as we can.

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#39
In Denmark, a law was recently enacted allowing (not requiring) employers to demand a "coronapas" (health passport). Many of the largest municipalities have availed themselves of this possibility (including my employer).

You have a valid coronapas if you've been vaccinated, had a negative PCR test in the last 72 hours, or had a negative antigene test in the last 48 hours, or have recovered from covid in the last 6 months.

The obvious problem (and the reason why cases are exploding) is that vaccinated people are spreading the virus because most don't bother to get tested (why should they? People were told that the vaccine would defeat the pandemic and many still believe this). Unvaccinated, otoh, are getting regularly tested and must self-isolate if they test positive.

Mass vaccination against an airborne virus is not the best way to defeat the pandemic. Regular testing and effective contact tracing is.

Vaccination should have been reserved for the high-risk groups (although even triple-vaccinated elderly people are dying, as are those with comorbidities).

Re: The epidemiological relevance of the Covid-vaccinated population is increasing

#40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These restrictions By the OP's own admission this is only "wearing masks" right now. That's what I was referring to. When you use "restrictions" so broadly you make the burden sound far more severe than what it is in reality to many people: "I have to wear masks indoors when in public." I feel like even if you think mask mandates are actually a big deal and too much for a human to intolerable, you should be able to…

His description is clearly about more than masks. You can't say "what's the big deal with masks" all the while ignoring everything that's happened over the past 2 years and will likely continue into the near future.

> You can't say "what's the big deal with masks" all the while ignoring everything that's happened over the past 2 years and will likely continue into the near future.

No I'm not. You're the one ignoring the vast majority of what I wrote. I explicitly addressed the restrictions during the pre-vaccine, mid-vaccine, and post-vaccine periods. They did not all summarize to "it's not that bad"; only the present (i.e. the post-vaccine period) did, and that's what you addressed. Now you're clearly misrepresenting my comment while mixing them up and adding in speculation about the future, and this is pretty unproductive, so I likely won't be replying further.

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