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Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#171

Post by dukeyukey »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #107
dukeyukey wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear that many of the European countries have lower dev salaries than the US. So maybe better conditions, but possibly lower pay. While arguably true, it's almost definitely not better conditions to blame. A more likely source is the massive and relatively homogenous US market, a culture open to immigration, and the huge reserves of capital sloshing about the country.

the significantly higher direct and indirect taxes are definitely related though

You'd be surprised.

Like, if we take taxes as a percentage of GDP as a figure, the US scores pretty well at about 27%. But Australia is at 28%, Canada at 32%, and even the UK at 33%. The differences aren't massive here. He'll, Ireland comes in at 23%.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#172

Post by lolsal »

throwaway803453 wrote: post #27

FWH has exposed how many white-collar jobs were only full-time in the ass-in-seat sense and how many employees should have Professional Meeting Attender as their job title. I used to be the guy who would champion efficient meeting practices. Now it's the last thing I want given that I can now work-out, make breakfast, do manual labor, etc., while listening to meeting. 4 day work week in grasp you ask ? For many I'd b…

> I'd never hire a full time employee who can work remotely. I'd employ a contractor who has to itemize their invoice.

I'm just curious as I've been the employer and the contractor in this scenario - do you think the output between a FTE and a contractor would be different? Do you think it would be different financially?

In my experience, developers tend to behave like a gas that expands to fill their container - people tend to work up to their compensation (whether it's hourly contracting or some form of salary + comp), and no more.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#173

Post by beerandt »

anonAndOn wrote: post #138
trcarney wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will be paid at the highest rate you can command based on the value of your skills in the labor force. If you have no relevant skills, you don't make much money until you do have relevant skills. You earn shit money and then build your skills and then you will no longer earn shit money. It's pretty simple and it is what happens to most minimum wage workers and workers in any sector of the economy.

Great for those with support, safety nets, options & abilities. The young, the mentally challenged, the old, the handicapped, the convicted... they're supposed eat cat food and go sleep under an overpass until they get motivated/healthy/unconvicted/a car/____?

The way to get young/unskilled people to build skills earlier in life is to lower the minimum wage, not increase it.

No one is going to hire a 12 year old for a part time job if the minimum wage is $15. It just increases the minimum skill level to be hireable. But hire them for $7.50 and they might have skills worth $15 by the time they're 18.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#174

Post by lolsal »

frontman1988 wrote: post #80

I would rather have a 6 day work week with 2 months of paid holidays every year. There isn't much you can do on a 3 day break that you can't do in a 1 day or 2 day break. But a month long break and you can do crazy stuff like hiking in Papua New Guinea or sailing across an ocean.

Life happens outside of two months a year, though.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#176

Post by pessimizer »

trcarney wrote: post #134
datavirtue wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the very reason unions exist. To protect all workers from the bad deal that other workers will accept. You have little appreciation for how much people can undervalue themselves. It is enough to where people think working at an Amazon warehouse for $15 an hour is a good deal. Sounds like a great deal for Amazon and Walmart. The workers making that wage don't know that it's a bad deal. Same way people pull out…

I am all for unions as long as they aren't mandated. In some areas an Amazon warehouse job is an exceptionally good job. I grew up in a place where one of the best job you could get was working at a Walmart distribution center. Basically like an Amazon warehouse but the whole this is a freezer. Also the government can't and shouldn't try to govern bad choices away from people. This would lead to a very authoritarian…

Unions are not allowed to negotiate benefits and wages exclusively for their members. Non-union employees are forced by this to become free riders.

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#177

Post by beerandt »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #111
mlyle wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally believe that the government should focus on a shorter workweek rather than minimum wage increases in the near term. If we shorten the nominal workweek to 36 hours before overtime is required (and encourage this to be in the form of 4x9 or 9/2 * 8): * Supply of labor will fall, increasing equilibrium pay for everyone * Everyone's quality of life goes up * Traffic and environmental impacts from commuting s…

I'm on a 40 hrs one week, 32 hrs the next. That yields every other Friday off. If I get a pronotion / pay increase I'm gonba try to opt for 32 hrs every week. > Everyone's quality of life goes up Ideally, yes. But for those who struggle in various ways the extra free time could be dangerous. I'm definitely in favor of a shorter work week. But there are always unintended consequences. For example I live in NJ. As the…

Yea- if you're not making money, you're usually spending it. Idle time costs more than the $0/hr you make while not working.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#178

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

trcarney wrote: post #144
ethbr0 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you build your skills, if you're spending 40+ hours a week working to make ends meet and trying to care for a family? You're arguing from an ideal situation, without taking into account that reality's average is very much less than ideal.

You are building your skills while you are working. If you can find time outside of work, you are just accelerating things.

You sound like someone who has never worked a minimum wage job. None of the skills you learn in these low end jobs is ever going to help you do anything but work similar low end jobs. I put myself through three associates degrees cleaning cars for a rental company. You know what that taught me? How to clean a car interior in 5-15 minutes. That's not exactly the most marketable of skills.

Fortunately that wasn't particularly laborious, so I still had the energy to do school too. Many people are not as lucky, and these days often have to work 2 or more jobs to get by. Worse, the kind of schooling I took advantage of is increasingly turning from vocation-oriented education to cheap-university-transfer education.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#179

Post by frickinLasers »

xupybd wrote: post #151
ipaddr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a win-win. They force other businesses who can't buy a machine to pay a higher floor. If no jobs exist at all those voters will bring in someone who will tax companies like yours and spread the wealth. Your company gets more productive. Paying some a lower wage because it delays another machine purchase is not a long term solutiom

That job was not a long term position most would either move on or up. People are more flexible than machines. They're a better choice if you can afford it. Living off of redistributed hand outs sounds like a horrible way to live. How do you improve your life? How do you find meaning? I live in a country that has 3rd generation beneficiaries. Their lives don't appear enjoyable. Once in that mind set it's so hard to g…

You're on a site full of motivated self-learners who would hopefully use that free time to improve their selves and contribute to far more interesting, useful, and fulfilling things than making the widgets the machine can make.

Most of us also probably live in countries where a significant fraction of the population would choose Playstation/Netflix/heroin instead. That's their choice, but you're probably right that much of it is learned behavior. Perhaps some significant resources (government funded or volunteered) should be applied toward teaching people how to make better use of their free time, if that's what they want.

It's certainly a better vision than making widgets 40 hours a week for a company with dubious social impact.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#180

Post by dukeyukey »

frontman1988 wrote: post #80

I would rather have a 6 day work week with 2 months of paid holidays every year. There isn't much you can do on a 3 day break that you can't do in a 1 day or 2 day break. But a month long break and you can do crazy stuff like hiking in Papua New Guinea or sailing across an ocean.

Arguably that's what savings and sabbaticals are for. I've had several colleges take an extended (albeit unpaid) holiday to go travelling or sailing or something.

I'm not saying a load more PTO isn't worth it, but there are definitely ways to do this kind of thing, and it's worth asking your company about it.

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