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Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

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Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#231

I think the point is missed. It's hard to claim that the context menu is good UI. The fact that so few people use the menu bar means that it's currently useless and needs to be reworked. It's not as if they're replacing the context menu with the ribbon, they're replacing the currently-unused menu bar.

That's not the problem here - it's that they are cramming literally hundreds of different actions into the ribbon. They're taking a bad design, and making it many times harder to navigate and far more confusing.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#233

The simple answer is that MS had to add all those buttons in the ribbon to make the UI more touch friendly. You cant right click on a tablet with your finger.

The problem here is really the ribbon itself. It is ugly awkward and hard to scan quickly due to it's inconsistent layout. I almost never find what I'm looking for without looking two or three times and I'm a regular user. Yes tablets need buttons to touch, what they don't need is a cluttered ugly ribbon.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#234
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which are not 'logical' operations like tapping and swiping - they must be learned and remembered. And now even those are getting out of control: http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/gestures.html Pretty soon I'm going to run out of fingers, and these certainly aren't easily discoverable.

I'm not sure if it's just me, but the 'pinch with 3 fingers and thumb' gesture seems to be practically impossible on the older macbooks with a separate pad & button - there just isn't the space.

That's completely okay because those older touchpads don't support gestures beyond two-finger-scroll anyway.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#235

Everyone I know loves managing their files, so it's great that Microsoft is finally improving Windows Explorer! WRONG! For the hundreds of nerds complaining that they don't have access to the file system on their iPads, there are millions of normal people who are delighted by a computer that they can use rather than manage. How much longer can Microsoft keep making a 20th century operating system? What's going to be…

I was just thinking this myself. Windows 8 is moving towards a tablet-like structure, they need to go all the way on this and get rid of the filesystem for 90% of users. Open almost any Windows laptop, and you'll see users who basically think of the hard drive as a file dumping ground. You'll see files stored on the Desktop, or everything just goes into one big directory. How many conversations have you had where you…

I would say having logically named directories and a strict HIG could solve this.

When I hit "Save" on a Mac, the file picker shows me a field where I can type a file name, and a drop down where I can choose between "Documents", "Pictures", "Movies", etc. or the last directory this particular program saved a file to. Most of the time the application will even pick a sensible default location. Only if I click the small arrow at the right of the drop down to I see the advanced file chooser.

On Windows, when I hit "Save", I get the advanced file picker by default. Unless the application is smart enough to set a sensible default location -- which most Windows applications are not -- the Windows file picker defaults to Desktop. This is the reason most people have all kinds of shit on their Windows desktops.

I can search for files on Windows now, so at least Windows has one thing right.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#237
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tap, swipe, draw apart, draw together, click home button, double click home button, click headset button, double click headset button, triple click headset button, Press external volume button, flick mute/screen-lock button, press lock button, hold lock button. I'm sure there's a few more buried in there that I haven't discovered. (Like swipe backwards to delete an item from a list)

Don't forget "tap and hold" on Safari. Found that one by accident.

Are you referring to tapping and holding images to save them to the library?

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#238
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break thos…

"Work in support sometime." Spending 2 years in hell doing phone tech support for an ISP after high school was probably the most valuable career experience I've ever had bar none. Nothing has prepared me for making and selling software to regular people better than this experience. Entire assumptions about how users interact with computers, ones based on my own experience, were rendered useless. The ways regular peop…

Sounds like a potentially useful experience but, what does a development lead have to do with designing good UI?

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#239
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Microsoft's data, more than 85% of the command usage in Explorer is through keyboard shortcuts or context menus. Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts. It seems to me that a lot of people here on HN are simply using this issue to talk about how much better they are at using a computer than the ordinary person, who is apparently quite inept. Unless there is…

Assuming the usage data is from Windows 7, the nonexistent usage of menu is probably largely because the menu is entirely hidden unless you know that hitting 'alt' brings it up. And that is a much newer hidden feature (Win7 era, maybe Vista with early signals in XP) than context menus (at least since Win95). Besides touch-friendliness, ribbons have huge benefits in discoverability. People can't use features they don'…

Actually, I think you missed the point of the article instead. It never argued that having buttons for common functions is bad but instead that some of the most bizarre and rarely used functions, e.g. Invert Selection, are showing up in a major UI element targeted largely at novice users.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#240
While the Ribbon UI was intended to simplify complex UI, these screenshots suggest it may not. Take for example the "Explorer in Windows 8" image. The visual hierarchy is very confusing. The ribbon appears to have 5 pages - but File is bold and special for some reason (it invokes a huge popup menu?). But the focus of the entire app is on Files - so what conceptually would not go under File, except for Folder operations? Furthermore, above this special File menu there are three super special (and somewhat inscrutable) icons. But aren't these just shortcuts for File operations? Why don't they just live under File menu? For that matter, why have toolbar buttons been hoisted into the title bar itself?

The current tab appears to be the Home tab, based on the highlight. But this has nothing to do with your "Home" directory - it is merely the "default" page for the most common operations. These operations are used to manage your files - the names of two other tabs in this hierarchy. What would the user expect to find there?

The layout of the Home tab is visually confusing. There is no grid or use of whitespace to guide the eye, and it presents a non-uniform 2-dimensional array of controls of different sizes. At least the old toolbars being 1-dimensional meant the user could easily remember approximately how far along the toolbar to look for the icon - now the user must scan a far more complex terrain to find what they're looking for.

There are two different sizes and layouts for action icons. So Copy and Paste are large icons with text below, while Cut is a small icon with text to the right. Why? Presumably it is less frequently used, but the inconsistency is visually jarring and non-obvious to the user.

While some buttons cause immediate actions, others have a small down-arrow next to them, suggesting they will probably pop up a menu instead. This introduces another variation to the two button types, giving a third type. But some have a default action when clicking on the button itself (a fourth type), and only reveal a menu when clicking on the arrow - yet there is no visual indication of which behaviour a button has. (This is apparent in IE and Office also.)

A user may wonder what is the difference between clicking on the dark blue File toolbar tab, versus clicking on the menu button in the very top of the titlebar, versus pressing Alt to reveal the hitherto hidden menubar?

While the Manage ribbon tab appears at the same hierarchy level as Home, Share and View, it has a brightly coloured tab _above_ it labelled "Library Tools". Vertical lines suggest it is superior to the Manage item; yet presumably it is also higher than Home, given its placement and urgent red/orange background? What is the difference between pressing Manage and selecting Library Tools?

A user not trained in the intricacies of the Office Ribbon UI will IMHO be utterly baffled by the complexity exposed in this UI and the inconsistencies therein.

While it is laudable that Microsoft is attempting to refresh the design of this venerable component of Windows, this work seems to be little more than a reshuffling of features and shortcuts, rather than a rethinking of file management.

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