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Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

reuters.com

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Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#61
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is mandating that you be vaccinated in Canada. They're just saying don't go to restaurants or bars or other places if you aren't since you're more likely to spread the disease.

Air-travel is an essential service according to Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (Crown corporation). https://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/en/covid19-response You aren't allowed to air-travel without COVID shots. Is that not mandatory then? Also the courts have stated before that: > "at the very least, liberty must include those freedoms of lawful conduct always enjoyed by Canadians and by our predecessors in the A…

> You aren't allowed to air-travel without COVID shots.

From your link:

  As of October 30, 2021, all travellers 12 years and four (4) months of age and older departing from Canadian airports must, upon request, present a valid record of their COVID-19 vaccination status **or molecular COVID-19 test result**.
Emphasis added. So no, there's no vaccine mandate for air travel if a negative test is accepted.

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vaccine skeptic analysis seems to stop at the cases and concludes that the vaccine is ineffective This is not accurate. It's the mandates which most people have problems with, not the vaccine. Mandating something which doesn't prevent transmission under coercion from the government is illogical. The current shots are basically potential severe symptom mitigator - which if you think you would benefit, you should tak…

I am a bit on the fence with Vaccine mandates, I wish they weren't necessary. But I get the key reason for them, which you have missed, is it isn't really about the health choices of the person getting vaccinated. If your vaccination status affected no-one but yourself then I would be strongly against any vaccine mandate. If you are unvaccinated you are more likely to get infected, that is your risk. But, if you do g…

What you are describing falls under "discrimination based on perceived disability" which both Canadian Supreme Court and US Supreme Court have repeatedly frowned upon.

The Ontario Human Rights Code includes "any degree of infirmity" in the definition of disability. They also recognize that the definition of disability extends to the actual or perceived possibility that a person may develop a disability in the future. "Anticipated" disabilities are covered where a person is not currently disabled, but are treated adversely because of a perception that they will eventually become disabled, become a burden, pose a risk, and/or require accommodation. OHRC requires that focus should always be on the current abilities of a person and the situation’s current risks rather than on limitations or risks that may or may not arise in the future.

Our courts have repeatedly recognized that all aspects of contagious diseases such as tuberculosis, HIV etc, constitute a disability. This includes the period of asymptomatic infection. In cases such as Biggs v. Hudson and others, Canadian courts have often relied on the United States Supreme Court ruling in School Board of Nassau County v. Arline which stated that a person with the contagious disease of tuberculosis was considered a "handicapped individual" and soundly rejected the argument that the exclusion could be justified on the basis of "pernicious mythologies" or "irrational fear." The court held that it would be wrong to permit discrimination “between the effects of a disease on others and the effects of a disease on a patient and use that distinction to justify discriminatory treatment.”

Therefore, tuberculosis is included in the definition of "disability". Due to the similar contagious nature and social stigma associated with COVID-19, it also fits the definition of a "disability".

Look up Biggs v. Hudson for Canadian or School Board of Nassau County v. Arline for SCOTUS ruling regarding perceived disability discrimination which was about Tuberculosis and included asymptomatic infection.

In Gehman v. Seyffert, BC's human rights tribunal allowed discrimination based on perceived disability to be amended when a landlord kicked out a tenant just because she was coughing and he thought she had COVID.

Anderson v. Exxon Co. is another US case that stated that "prejudice in the sense of a judgment or opinion formed before the facts are known is the fountainhead of discrimination engulfing medical disabilities which prove on examination to be unrelated to job performance or to be non-existent."

Also, your assumption is incorrect. The week between Nov 6 and Nov 13, 53.96% of Canada's cases were fully vaxed, whereas 38.52% were unvaccinated and rest were partially vaxxed or under the 14 day period. I understand that Canada has high vaccination rate. But that doesn't explain the much faster growth of the fully vaccinated cases after 3-6 months of the vaccination and the rate of fully vaccinated is much higher than the rate of vaccinations.

As I pointed out in my other comment, mild cases in vaccinated have the same viral load as unvaccinated:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29400950

If the goal is to prevent the spread of COVID, why would you only focus on the 39% and not on the 54% (and quickly rising due to waning effectiveness as vast majority of Canada's vaccinations occurred in the last 3-4 months). And why would you not allow testing as a sufficient measure - which would be even better than allowing 54% fully vaccinated cases?

In fact, in Ontario, the government admits testing is good enough because they didn't mandate it for health care workers as well as the politicians themselves:

> "We expect that if people have not received the vaccine, they are being tested regularly before they go into anyone’s homes or before they go to work in hospitals. But there are safeguards in place for people currently. If they’re not vaccinated, they need to be tested regularly to ensure that it is safe for them to go into someone’s home."

https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/...

The Ontario government has also allowed natural immunity for Member of Parliaments but not for citizens:

> "But on August 18, the government whip issued notice to government MPPs that they’re required to vaccinate unless they can provide a medical exemption or a physician’s note that vaccination is “unnecessary by reason of past infection or laboratory evidence of immunity.”"

https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/...

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air-travel is an essential service according to Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (Crown corporation). https://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/en/covid19-response You aren't allowed to air-travel without COVID shots. Is that not mandatory then? Also the courts have stated before that: > "at the very least, liberty must include those freedoms of lawful conduct always enjoyed by Canadians and by our predecessors in the A…

> You aren't allowed to air-travel without COVID shots. From your link: As of October 30, 2021, all travellers 12 years and four (4) months of age and older departing from Canadian airports must, upon request, present a valid record of their COVID-19 vaccination status **or molecular COVID-19 test result**. Emphasis added. So no, there's no vaccine mandate for air travel if a negative test is accepted.

Read the very next paragraph of what you quoted:

> After November 30, 2021, all passengers must be fully vaccinated and present valid proof of being fully vaccinated, with very limited exceptions. COVID-19 test results will no longer be accepted after this date.

> As of November 15, 2021, screening officers will be conducting random proof of vaccination checks of non-passengers at CATSA security screening checkpoints. The checks will take place at 15 airports located in Victoria, Vancouver, Kelowna, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, London, Toronto (Pearson International and Billy Bishop), Ottawa, Montreal (Trudeau), Quebec City, and St. John’s. Upon request, non-passengers will be required to provide proof of vaccination against COVID-19 in order to enter an airport’s restricted area.

I know about this because I have an ongoing lawsuit with the Canadian government.

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You aren't allowed to air-travel without COVID shots. From your link: As of October 30, 2021, all travellers 12 years and four (4) months of age and older departing from Canadian airports must, upon request, present a valid record of their COVID-19 vaccination status **or molecular COVID-19 test result**. Emphasis added. So no, there's no vaccine mandate for air travel if a negative test is accepted.

Read the very next paragraph of what you quoted: > After November 30, 2021, all passengers must be fully vaccinated and present valid proof of being fully vaccinated, with very limited exceptions. COVID-19 test results will no longer be accepted after this date. > As of November 15, 2021, screening officers will be conducting random proof of vaccination checks of non-passengers at CATSA security screening checkpoints…

> with very limited exceptions.

So again not a mandate. Good luck on your lawsuit, you'll need it.

edit: Since you called me dishonest, I'll explain exactly why I think you'll need luck on your lawsuit:

I understand you are highly charged about this issue due to your being involved in a lawsuit, so you seem to be in litigation attack mode. That's understandable. But calling the other side dishonest and not worthy of engagement won't serve you or your lawyer well in a court of law, so you might as well get used to being challenged without taking it personally.

Based on what you've posted here it seems like you feel the vaccine requirements are discriminatory and unfair because they restrict people from gaining access to essential services like air travel.

Yet the links you provide have shown that the Canadian government

1. Had an extended period of time when unvaccinated people could travel with a test to give them time to get vaccinated.

2. Have now moved to a phase where they don't accept tests but still have exceptions to vaccination

3. Those exceptions are specifically designed to accommodate people who rely on air travel for an essential service.

4. There are exceptions for people who cannot get vaccinated

5. There are exceptions for people in the process of getting vaccinated

6. There are options for you to travel if you cannot get vaccinated, making air travel not essential in that case, so your argument falls apart there.

I have no idea how this would hold up in court, obviously I'm not a lawyer. But the government is going to argue that they have the right to set public health policy (true), they have made accommodations (true), there are exceptions (true), and for anyone whom air travel is essential there are further accommodations (true). For the sake of your case, I hope your lawyer presents your arguments in court better than you have presented them here, because I'm not convinced.

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the very next paragraph of what you quoted: > After November 30, 2021, all passengers must be fully vaccinated and present valid proof of being fully vaccinated, with very limited exceptions. COVID-19 test results will no longer be accepted after this date. > As of November 15, 2021, screening officers will be conducting random proof of vaccination checks of non-passengers at CATSA security screening checkpoints…

> with very limited exceptions. So again not a mandate. Good luck on your lawsuit, you'll need it. edit: Since you called me dishonest, I'll explain exactly why I think you'll need luck on your lawsuit: I understand you are highly charged about this issue due to your being involved in a lawsuit, so you seem to be in litigation attack mode. That's understandable. But calling the other side dishonest and not worthy of…

> So again not a mandate

https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/10/manda...

Look at what the government calls it: "Mandatory COVID-19 vaccination requirements for federally regulated transportation employees and travellers"

Notice the "Mandatory".

You are being purposefully dishonest. This discussion is not worth proceeding.

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reuters used to represent a "just the facts" news wire. After reading the article I'm still not seeing the problem. The sentences in the article are factual information, there is no obvious editorial bias like a CNN or Fox article, and there is nothing telling you how to feel (e.g. "You should be afraid" NYT title). Reuters still seems pretty good compared to what's available out there.

Publishing the story is itself an editorial decision.

Are you asking for self-censorship of facts?

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only means you're in the place with a lot virus flowing around, nothing else. Vaccine stimulate your immune system to lower the chance to get infected, and even if infected much lower chance to get severely damaged.

I’m not sure your explanation is sound. Studies have shown doctors/nurses get sick (pre-Covid) at more or less the same rate as the rest of the population, despite increased exposure to circulating colds and flus. Explanations ranged from “they get vaccinated more” to “background exposure to very low payloads primes the immune system and keeps them healthier.”

I am thinking that maybe doctors/nurses have two factors that cancel out so it makes their infected numbers look like the rest of the population:

- higher exposure

but also

- better, and stricter safety measures that are really followed

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bit on the fence with Vaccine mandates, I wish they weren't necessary. But I get the key reason for them, which you have missed, is it isn't really about the health choices of the person getting vaccinated. If your vaccination status affected no-one but yourself then I would be strongly against any vaccine mandate. If you are unvaccinated you are more likely to get infected, that is your risk. But, if you do g…

What you are describing falls under "discrimination based on perceived disability" which both Canadian Supreme Court and US Supreme Court have repeatedly frowned upon. The Ontario Human Rights Code includes "any degree of infirmity" in the definition of disability. They also recognize that the definition of disability extends to the actual or perceived possibility that a person may develop a disability in the future.…

I just wanted to say bravo for your last two posts in this chain. I learned a lot; thank you.

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with very limited exceptions. So again not a mandate. Good luck on your lawsuit, you'll need it. edit: Since you called me dishonest, I'll explain exactly why I think you'll need luck on your lawsuit: I understand you are highly charged about this issue due to your being involved in a lawsuit, so you seem to be in litigation attack mode. That's understandable. But calling the other side dishonest and not worthy of…

> So again not a mandate https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/10/manda... Look at what the government calls it: "Mandatory COVID-19 vaccination requirements for federally regulated transportation employees and travellers" Notice the "Mandatory". You are being purposefully dishonest. This discussion is not worth proceeding.

I admire your detailed and thorough analysis. Don't let those with an agenda tamp your energy. Your posts present the most concentrated unbiased information I've seen in any thread about COVID.

Using unbiased information for biased purposes (a lawsuit) does not make the information biased.

Re: Two Triple Vaccinated Israeli Doctors Infected with Omicron

#70
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is mandating that you be vaccinated in Canada. They're just saying don't go to restaurants or bars or other places if you aren't since you're more likely to spread the disease.

Air-travel is an essential service according to Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (Crown corporation). https://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/en/covid19-response You aren't allowed to air-travel without COVID shots. Is that not mandatory then? Also the courts have stated before that: > "at the very least, liberty must include those freedoms of lawful conduct always enjoyed by Canadians and by our predecessors in the A…

> This is inaccurate. Even in mild symptom cases, vaccinated and unvaccinated infections harbour the same levels of viral load. The Delta variant is able to grow in the noses of vaccinated people to the same degree as if they were not vaccinated at all and both groups can unknowingly and unwittingly transmit the virus for 3 days before experiencing any symptoms in 75% of the Delta variant infections.

It's more nuanced than peak viral loads clearance rate is important. there is research suggesting that vaccines do reduce transmission, though that benefit may not last as long as one would hope.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

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