Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#181

Post by super_mario » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:36 PM UTC

Lewisham wrote: post #56

martingordon wrote: post #38

Everyone I know loves managing their files, so it's great that Microsoft is finally improving Windows Explorer! WRONG! For the hundreds of nerds complaining that they don't have access to the file system on their iPads, there are millions of normal people who are delighted by a computer that they can use rather than manage. How much longer can Microsoft keep making a 20th century operating system? What's going to be…

I was just thinking this myself. Windows 8 is moving towards a tablet-like structure, they need to go all the way on this and get rid of the filesystem for 90% of users. Open almost any Windows laptop, and you'll see users who basically think of the hard drive as a file dumping ground. You'll see files stored on the Desktop, or everything just goes into one big directory. How many conversations have you had where you…

Mac OS X already has that, but I still would not like to see the filesystem hidden from me. It's just too valuable idea for it to go away and it takes us further away from general computing to turning our computers into appliances owned by our OS vendor.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#182

Post by leon_ » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:39 PM UTC

varunsrin wrote: post #172

leon_ wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that new computer users who can't remember "non intuitive" concepts like right clicking and context menus will know what cut/copy/paste on files does?

Again, cut/copy/paste are technical terms - the intent a user is likely to form is, I have this word file here, and i need to put it onto this USB drive here. The large copy to button in the ribbon accomplishes that task nicely. Remember, its not that user's cant remember right clicking, its that they shouldn't have to. Why should you need two different types of clicks, and 2 sub menus to Send a file to a drive, when…

> Making the initial learning curve simple will have implications on the overall feel & appeal of the operating system, but this is something that is difficult to quantify with simple software metrics.

Ok, but the file system metaphor with its files and folders is unintuitive. New users get lost or just don't get that metaphor. You won't make anything easier for them by putting bigger buttons into the toolbar when they can't imagine for what those buttons might be used.

Alone the metaphor of "copying" a file is so unintuitive. If my mother wants to take a look at the photos she took with her cam she sure won't think about "copying" them.

My point is: MS is trying to fix the wrong problem. They should think about getting rid of end user facing file systems instead of bolting bigger and brighter buttons onto a horribly user unfriendly application like the explorer.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#183

Post by elehack » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:45 PM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #18

varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

According to Microsoft's data, more than 85% of the command usage in Explorer is through keyboard shortcuts or context menus. Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts. It seems to me that a lot of people here on HN are simply using this issue to talk about how much better they are at using a computer than the ordinary person, who is apparently quite inept. Unless there is…

Assuming the usage data is from Windows 7, the nonexistent usage of menu is probably largely because the menu is entirely hidden unless you know that hitting 'alt' brings it up. And that is a much newer hidden feature (Win7 era, maybe Vista with early signals in XP) than context menus (at least since Win95).

Besides touch-friendliness, ribbons have huge benefits in discoverability. People can't use features they don't know exist; ribbons organize features into browsable, meaningful panels so they can be found, related to each other, and used. The article seems to entirely miss this point.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#184

Post by elehack » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:49 PM UTC

mmuro wrote: post #75

_They use this to show that “the commands that make up 84% of what users do in Explorer are now in one tab”. But the more important thing is that the remaining 50% of the bar is taken up by buttons that nobody will ever use, ever, even according to Microsoft’s own research._ This hits the nail on the head when discussing the UI decisions made. If Microsoft had included the top 10 commands in an organized manner, plus…

There's a huge difference between have never used and will never use. Microsoft's data is about past usage; the article makes an unjustified extrapolation from that to future message. This extrapolation is particularly relevant when discussing a feature that largely serves to improve discoverability - if the features make sense together, putting them together and making them visible may help users get more out of the software.

It would be interesting to find out how many people say "I never knew the file manager could do that" when they fire up Windows 8, even when the feature has been there since NT4.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#185

Post by kyleslattery » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:55 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #134

dhimes wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are the ipad and iphone taking off? It's really hard to learn to do things on those devices. It's cumbersome to turn off wifi and bluetooth to save battery. The control location makes no sense in the settings menu (to my mind, anyway). I was a HUGE Apple fan for the early Macs. I totally get what you are saying. But we LOST in the workplace. It was just too slow for the other folks in the office to use (of c…

I don't know why you got downvoted, and I upvoted to try and offset, but ignoring that... I think that you overstate the importance of turning off wifi and bluetooth. Those are power user options, for sure. When you're trying to conserve battery power, you're trying to streamline how you use the device, which to me, smacks of 'power user'. The flipside to that argument is that it is ridiculously easy to browse a web…

Yes, absolutely. There is almost no reason to touch wifi and bluetooth settings on iOS devices. I have wifi enabled all the time, and battery life is still excellent.

Android devices on the other hand, need constant fiddling. My Droid would barely last a day with everything turned off, and with wifi, etc. turned on, it would die after only about 6 hours.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#186

Post by archgoon » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:59 PM UTC

super_mario wrote: post #181

Lewisham wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just thinking this myself. Windows 8 is moving towards a tablet-like structure, they need to go all the way on this and get rid of the filesystem for 90% of users. Open almost any Windows laptop, and you'll see users who basically think of the hard drive as a file dumping ground. You'll see files stored on the Desktop, or everything just goes into one big directory. How many conversations have you had where you…

Mac OS X already has that, but I still would not like to see the filesystem hidden from me. It's just too valuable idea for it to go away and it takes us further away from general computing to turning our computers into appliances owned by our OS vendor.

I think the idea of the parent poster is that there would be no file system (at least not in the sense of a tree hierarchy of directories), just a large database with some SQL like language exposed through the GUI.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#187

Post by chao- » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 12:14 AM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #36

dhimes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus I didn't realize this. In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus, especially if the context menus had related commands like file manipulation if in Windows Explorer (is it still called that?), or formatting…

Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break thos…

Second part is about explorer itself. While it might seem like a common utility (even necessary), I find it very rare for a general user to know about it (my wife does not, nor my parents, siblings, their friends,...but my wife's father does). Once they see it, they have no idea what to do.

Seconding. Especially before Windows 7 added Explorer as a pinned item by default, the less-technologically-literate persons I know would simply called it "My Computer", and used it in the large-icon, single-paned view. On one occasion while helping a friend find a file, I opened Explorer and switched it to the Details view option. Between that and the folder hierarchy in the left pane, I guess it looked different enough from "My Computer" that my friend was used to and I was given the reaction "Wow, you're really in the guts of the machine, now."

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#188

Post by sunchild » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 12:19 AM UTC

sid0 wrote: post #85

sunchild wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what type of "documents" you're referring to, but the images could be handled as with any other media import upon attaching the drive – i.e., within the image browsing app. As for moving images to the USB drive, that's an export from the image browsing app.

I'm not sure what type of "documents" you're referring to Aha, therein lies the rub. These documents could be essentially arbitrary files, and there's no substitute to a general purpose file manager for them. Writing an app for every single file format that could be present on the USB drive is highly inefficient compared to the usual file manager. My basic point is that filesystems are a well-established standard , a…

If the file type is arbitrary, and doesn't correspond to an app, then you're using your internal hard disk as a file store. There are better solutions for that.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#189

Post by VaedaStrike » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 12:31 AM UTC

Oh the myopic mind has no bound. Well...except where it has to have bounds to be considered myopic...

Do you expect an UI designed for someone that's never heard of HN and who is unaware that you can copy and paste pieces of text SHOULD seem attractive to a technohipster blogger?

So many times HN seems like the next incarnation of the Library of Alexandria and then posts like this make it seem like a bunch of silly stupid cyber bullies stuck in myspace and high school WHILE guffawing at the teacher's assignment for the day.

Microsoft is often times silly, stupid, evil, whacked out. But don't go projecting myopic mamby-pamby "critique" like you knew something.

Love them or hate them or think they're falling off of the face of the earth Microsoft gets enough right to still pull in the pennies, a tad bit more than I think this poor chap manages with his blog.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#190

Post by heelhook » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 12:34 AM UTC

zwaldowski wrote: post #150

whatusername wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tap, swipe, draw apart, draw together, click home button, double click home button, click headset button, double click headset button, triple click headset button, Press external volume button, flick mute/screen-lock button, press lock button, hold lock button. I'm sure there's a few more buried in there that I haven't discovered. (Like swipe backwards to delete an item from a list)

Except that those boil down to a couple of basic gestures: tap, pinch, swipe. The hardware buttons are irrelevant in this case. Oh, and swipe to delete? That's in the "manual" that comes with the device. It's smaller than a dollar, for god's sake.

Wonder how many iPhone users have read their user manual, I sure threw out the manual on day 1.