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Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

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Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#171

Post by raganwald »

pointyhat wrote: post #127
revscat wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two questions: 1) Why the anger? 2) What specific tasks are difficult for you to accomplish in Finder or Mail? The default icon set in Mail (seen here: http://i.imgur.com/zYmaw.png ) do not seem to be difficult to parse. Ditto the Finder icons.

1) 2 days with Lion and ten years of Apple fanboys whinging in my ear like angry wasps. 2) Just about everything from the awful toolbar icons (the labels are turned off by default on my MacBook) to the fact that it makes an awful mess of the messages and it's impossible to stick an image attachment in it without it trying to rape you in the eye socket with iPhoto.

You predicted that you would be downvoted for your views. Have you considered the alternate explanation that your fellow HN users appreciate a fresh perspective but don't appreciate dragging the tone of the discussion into the gutter with abusive stereotypes like "Apple fanboys?"

It's getting to the point where the use of the word "fanboy" in a thread effectively ends all rational discourse.

https://twitter.com/raganwald/status/108314926933753856

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#172

Post by varunsrin »

leon_ wrote: post #167
varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

What makes you think that new computer users who can't remember "non intuitive" concepts like right clicking and context menus will know what cut/copy/paste on files does?

Again, cut/copy/paste are technical terms - the intent a user is likely to form is, I have this word file here, and i need to put it onto this USB drive here. The large copy to button in the ribbon accomplishes that task nicely.

Remember, its not that user's cant remember right clicking, its that they shouldn't have to. Why should you need two different types of clicks, and 2 sub menus to Send a file to a drive, when you can accomplish it with a single click and a single sub-menu (as is demonstrated in the ribbon)

Making the initial learning curve simple will have implications on the overall feel & appeal of the operating system, but this is something that is difficult to quantify with simple software metrics.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#173

Post by wpietri »

dhimes wrote: post #73
tjogin wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Invisible actions are harder to discover than visible ones, not that illogical really, and one of the key ways in which the Mac is more user friendly as it depends on context menus to a lesser degree.

While I agree with all of your points, keep in mind that when 'civilians' were just getting to use computers (being forced to at work, etc.), Mac lost in favor of the IBM-compatibles (what people started calling 'pc's). There are a lot of reasons for this, to be sure, but difficulty of using the PC was not something that carried much weight in the argument (I was there for the arguments, and I was a mac man).

True, but for reasons closely related to this discussion. Back in the day, the benefits of Macs were mostly invisible to novices when making a purchase decision. PCs looked cheaper and safer.

Apple has learned a lesson here. They are now heavily optimized for ease and comfort of purchase.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#174

Post by scott_s »

sid0 wrote: post #85
sunchild wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what type of "documents" you're referring to, but the images could be handled as with any other media import upon attaching the drive – i.e., within the image browsing app. As for moving images to the USB drive, that's an export from the image browsing app.

I'm not sure what type of "documents" you're referring to Aha, therein lies the rub. These documents could be essentially arbitrary files, and there's no substitute to a general purpose file manager for them. Writing an app for every single file format that could be present on the USB drive is highly inefficient compared to the usual file manager. My basic point is that filesystems are a well-established standard , a…

I think the point you're missing is that most people only manipulate data that clearly belongs to some application. So, for most people, the relevant application managing their data and abstracting away the underlying file system is a valid option.

If that doesn't work for you, then okay. You're not most people.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#175

Post by CamperBob »

xtracto wrote: post #95
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most "normals" I interact with are beginners every time they use the computer . They are not comfortable discovering anything. I can teach them something and be confident in them forgetting it by the next time I talk to them. Things like moving files around directories is black magic to them. Directories are black magic to them. The problem I see with this solution is two-fold: 1. The people who understand this stuff…

Oh my. That reminded me of a colleague of mine who thought I was doing "black magic" when I converted from "text to columns" in Excel. Guess what, she has a PhD in Geography. That really emphasizes your point. For me, the problem with the ribbon has been (the times I tried to use Office 2010) that there are some more "advanced" commands (like, inserting a cross-reference to a Figure or Table) which became quite hidde…

Actually, every time I have to use the ribbon (my institute's laptop has office 2010) I start imaging an addon which "learns" what are the most used commands and configures the "Home" (or another) ribbon tab showing icons to access those commands. Surely, someone must have already thought of that no?

This is similar to what MS did with pulldown menus in the pre-Ribbon days. It sounds like a great idea but it turns out to be a terrible one in practice. During the critical "newbie" phase, as a user begins to work with the program, the UI never seems to look the same twice. Tasks that should become reflexive never lose their dependence on the brain. At the same time, more advanced users are left wondering what interesting features they might be missing.

You really, really do not want a UI that changes behind your back, or in ways that aren't explicitly commanded. Resorting to discrete novice / expert modes is a venial sin in UI design, but "personalized menus" is a mortal one. It's about the worst thing you can do, and IMO there's no reason to think it would be any better in a ribbon-oriented model than in a menu-driven one.

(Edit: I do agree that restricting the adaptive menu scheme to a specific ribbon tab might be a more promising approach than monkeying with the structure and layout of the standard tabs.)

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#176

Post by zobzu »

I'm probably the only one to think that it's good that MS keeps buttons that are less used. Cause you see less used does not mean NOT used. Sure cut&paste is going to be like 80% of the use, but when you make a new dir you're going to have that working and in front of you.

Here's the key sentence,take note:

It's not how OFTEN you use it that matters most but how USEFUL it is.

Browser makers, please take note when you remove 99% of the UI. Thanks.

Beside I know most "noobs" look for these functions in menus and will love the buttons. Even on OSX many just don't know how to move/copy. They can do it in iPhoto or iMovie, but when it comes to the finder they're lost.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#177

Post by cytzol »

revscat wrote: post #129
whatusername wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your suggestion is? How is the ribbon any different to a hierarchial menu bar? (See the Gnome drop-down menu or the iOS Settings Menu).

Limit the need for Explorer/Finder/etc. altogether. For those cases where it is needed limit top level UI elements to the most commonly used items. Move the rest to either a toolbar or a contextual menu. You know, I just checked Finder and realized that not only does it not have the things showed in this mockup, but that I have never missed them. Strange.

Did you consider that you haven't missed these things because you aren't used to using them?

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#178

Post by technoslut »

ThomPete wrote: post #153
technoslut wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that it's only part of it. Another part is the lack of a filesystem. Many, if not most users, just don't like it or understand it. Though there are functions that are seriously lacking in iOS, I can't help but think that they're much closer to what is needed than MS.

It's only part of it but the primary reason. The actual removal of abstraction (mouse) have made it much easier to use it. This is why my son at 2 can use the ipad and he can't use the mouse and keyboard for the desktop and laptops.

I agree but what would happen if your son had to navigate Windows Explorer on a touchscreen? He may never have to but if older users are experiencing similar difficulties with the filesystem, little can be done with the command bar to completely fix this issue.

I have no doubt that this UI, though cluttered, will help users out but I question whether this is ultimately the best solution.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#179

Post by benaston »

shriphani wrote: post #138
sunchild wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what type of "documents" you're referring to, but the images could be handled as with any other media import upon attaching the drive – i.e., within the image browsing app. As for moving images to the USB drive, that's an export from the image browsing app.

Ok, didn't expect I had to do this on HN but here goes: -> Write code, -> Dump logs to app.log, app.err -> Is there an err browsing app you're aware of ? If that ever happened to someone on HN, the consequences: -> If apple implemented something so broken, some nutter would explain to me what extension to use. -> If MS implemented it, there would be a #1 post on HN with the title "MS file management is broken beyond…

"...write code..." Congratulations, you are part of the less than one percent of the world workforce that are developers. As a developer, even I only need full filesystem access when I am developing, which is a fraction of my time. Having full filesystem access is an important use case, you can have it. For the rest of the world, it is a usability barrier.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#180

Post by prewett »

hernan7 wrote: post #30
varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

The "copy to" and "move to" buttons, seem to be some variation on the old "send to" command, which is currently available via both right-click and menu bar. (For those not familiar with Windows: if I select a file, the "send to" options are: compressed folder, create desktop shortcut, documents, fax, email, burn to DVD, network directory.) Personally, that's an command that I never use; not sure how popular it is wit…

I love "Send To". I keep a link to Notepad2 and a hex editor in there (and sometimes Emacs) so that I can easily use a real editor or get a hex dump. It's kind of like "Open With..." except that it's always in the menu and somehow Open With... might not pick up the program you want, so you have to waste time traversing the directory tree.
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