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Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

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Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#151

Post by tdfx »

pointyhat wrote: post #135
lancewiggs wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Excel geek - and yes sorry I've done far too much VBA in my time. The ribbon has all but destroyed Office for me. The commands are randomly scattered about the sub-menus of the ribbon, much of the content is stuff I will never ever use and it takes up a ridiculous amount of space. While it seems a large step backwards to folks like me who were expert users, the ribbon apparently makes it easier for "average" u…

You're only angry because you have to relearn it. You're probably used to using the Alt-F-S type key shortcuts. The rest have pretty much been left unchanged (Ctrl+S) for example. Also don't forget the clusterfuck that was the menuing system from Office XP -> Office 2003 where every time you opened a menu, everything was in a different place. Google Docs is no good for me when I have to deal with sensitive data that…

I see that argument about the security of Google Docs often and I don't really understand it.

Speaking hypothetically, as an attacker I'd much rather see you keep your sensitive documents on your own computer where you browse flash-enabled web sites, open and edit PDFs, and download email attachments. Trying to get to your Google Docs through a Google Account with 2-step authentication would be much more painful.

That's assuming your enemy is a malicious, non-government actor. If you're hiding your documents from other threats (read: 3-letter agencies), maybe your aversion to Google Docs is more understandable.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#152

Post by seabee »

woobar wrote: post #48
varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

'Move To' and 'Copy To' existed for a long time. I have them on Windows XP. They are not on a toolbar by default, by anyone can add them. Nobody knows about them for one reason - they are useless. Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/5e5xN.jpg

they're on the toolbar in Vista and Win 7. In XP they're not on the toolbar but they're on the side bar that is shown by default.

Edit: Vista/7 may not be completely true, but it's certainly that way on my untechnically-minded mother's laptop - probably the result of context (e.g. in a library of pictures) or a setting somewhere.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#153

Post by ThomPete »

technoslut wrote: post #105
ThomPete wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are taking off because they are touch devices and not mouse devices.

I believe that it's only part of it. Another part is the lack of a filesystem. Many, if not most users, just don't like it or understand it. Though there are functions that are seriously lacking in iOS, I can't help but think that they're much closer to what is needed than MS.

It's only part of it but the primary reason.

The actual removal of abstraction (mouse) have made it much easier to use it. This is why my son at 2 can use the ipad and he can't use the mouse and keyboard for the desktop and laptops.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#154

Post by archangel_one »

sid0 wrote: post #125
revscat wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lion 10.7.1 was a whopping 79.3MB. That's nothing, especially for an OS point release. And judging by the popular success of the iPad I have to disagree with the suggestion that Apple is less inclusive.

Lion 10.7.1 was a whopping 79.3MB. Well, they might have fixed it then. All I know is that I balked at the 1GB OS X update waiting for me. And judging by the popular success of the iPad I have to disagree with the suggestion that Apple is less inclusive. The iPad is only popular in rich first world countries. You will find tons of PCs running Windows in not-so-rich countries, orders of magnitude more. That is exactly…

Windows 7 SP1 is not exactly svelte - it's around 1GB or so as well.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#155

Post by abhimishra »

This post seems to miss the point - obviously some of the commands that were less-visible or non-existent earlier would not show up on the telemetry data, but can still be important to surface in a redesign of the UI.

The newly-added buttons on the ribbon are there to address the most-requested features (by actual customers) as well as some of the missing features users most-often go to third-party plug-ins for, per the actual blog post from the Windows 8 Engineering Blog.

As for whether the UI is stream-lined or not - while simplification has its place, it is not always a good thing. The OSX Finder is surprisingly devoid of things even basic users can find useful - in many cases it isn't easy to find the appropriate menu option or shortcut to perform these actions - personally I think it goes too far by way of simplification.

It is good to make computers easy-to-understand - but by attempting to remove the learning curve COMPLETELY you can also damage the productivity a computer can provide. The sweetspot, of course, is somewhere in the middle.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#156

Post by zwaldowski »

sid0 wrote: post #71
martingordon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you don't need a filesystem. There are other ways to interact with data besides a file browser. On the iPad, I can use the official Photos app (or any of the other photo apps) to get my photos where they need to go, whether that's a phone, computer, website or printer. I don't read my email by going into the "My Emails" folder on my C:\ drive, I access my email through a UI specifically made for access…

And what happens if there's a file type the OS doesn't support? In my case that often happens with mkv files. How do I tell iTunes (or any other music player) to import some of the music on my USB drive? iTunes doesn't even allow you to do that with iPods...

"There's an app for that."

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#157

Post by Qz »

dhimes wrote: post #14
varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus I didn't realize this. In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus, especially if the context menus had related commands like file manipulation if in Windows Explorer (is it still called that?), or formatting…

The main problem with right clicking is that right clicking does a myriad different things depending on what is being clicked on, whereas left clicking almost always does the same thing.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#158

Post by icebraining »

hernan7 wrote: post #30
varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

The "copy to" and "move to" buttons, seem to be some variation on the old "send to" command, which is currently available via both right-click and menu bar. (For those not familiar with Windows: if I select a file, the "send to" options are: compressed folder, create desktop shortcut, documents, fax, email, burn to DVD, network directory.) Personally, that's an command that I never use; not sure how popular it is wit…

>(For those not familiar with Windows: if I select a file, the "send to" options are: compressed folder, create desktop shortcut, documents, fax, email, burn to DVD, network directory.)

There's one more: if you have a bluetooth adapter (or a laptop with embedded support), it shows a 'Send to Bluetooth device'. I find this very useful for sending files to my phone.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#159

Post by crenshaw »

This is an odd article, because Microsoft addresses exactly the point this person is arguing against.

MS says, "Only 2 of the top 10 commands customers invoke in Explorer are available in the Command bar, the main UI element for invoking commands."

And have this picture, http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communit...

The takeaway from the data isn't that you should focus on people using context menus, because all commands haven't been available in other places. But they used their data and said, "there are the most common desired actions" coupled with their own design sense that said, "if we moved them to the ribbon they'd be easier to use".

To me that makes a great deal of sense.

I feel like this person, Seldo, who wrote this blog post attacked MS without either reading the full MS post or not understanding it. Statements like, "But the more important thing is that the remaining 50% of the bar is taken up by buttons that nobody will ever use, ever, even according to Microsoft’s own research" (which she bolded) simply aren't in the data MS presented. It's as if she misunderstood the distinction between location and action.

And later she says, "Again, this is Microsoft’s own research, cited in the same post: nobody — almost literally 0% of users — uses the menu bar, and only 10% of users use the command bar." Again she seems to not understand that the most common actions were only available from the context menus.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#160

Post by jbrechtel »

DougBTX wrote: post #89
51Cards wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you're saying, and despite the content of my above post I've never been an Apple guy, always a Windows one. Every time I went over to the Apple OS I felt I had one hand tied behind my back by lack of options. I also try to keep in mind that I'm not typical. I started on "PCs" in 1981 and have grown with them, this all comes naturally. So when I judge a UI I literally stick my Mom on it... she's 68.…

I felt I had one hand tied behind my back That reminds me of the first few times I tried to learn vim.

Yea. For me it was like two hands... :)

Now though, any other editor that's not Vim or Emacs feels like that...

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