Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#111

Post by Stratoscope » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:48 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #54

psychotik wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seriously think that average users push 'Alt'?

Haha, compared to "F10"? But really, yes, because Alt activates menus in Windows applications. e.g. "Aft-F" for the File menu.

Yes, but as much as you and I like keyboard shortcuts, I think we're a very small minority of Windows users. I don't think I've ever seen any of my normal everyday friends use Alt shortcuts, or even Tab and Enter in a dialog or web form. Even if I have them try it, next time I see them they are back to mousing and clicking everything.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#112

Post by icarus_drowning » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:50 PM UTC

I'm not sure why, but I've never really gotten used to the ribbon. Especially in Office 2010 , I find it incredibly difficult to navigate and, frankly, hugely annoying. To see it brought to something like explorer is horrifying, especially considering the large amount of vertical space it takes up.

Shouldn't there be more intuitive ways of doing these things? Why is there a need for a move button or copy (one or the other) when you have drag and drop? I know it is very much in vogue to abstract the file system away from the user, and it strikes me that this is exactly the opposite, and just might be just a little over engineered.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#113

Post by Meai » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:50 PM UTC

Lewisham wrote: post #56

martingordon wrote: post #38

Everyone I know loves managing their files, so it's great that Microsoft is finally improving Windows Explorer! WRONG! For the hundreds of nerds complaining that they don't have access to the file system on their iPads, there are millions of normal people who are delighted by a computer that they can use rather than manage. How much longer can Microsoft keep making a 20th century operating system? What's going to be…

I was just thinking this myself. Windows 8 is moving towards a tablet-like structure, they need to go all the way on this and get rid of the filesystem for 90% of users. Open almost any Windows laptop, and you'll see users who basically think of the hard drive as a file dumping ground. You'll see files stored on the Desktop, or everything just goes into one big directory. How many conversations have you had where you…

Interesting idea! There is no indication of what "My Documents" contains. What do I put in there? What is a "document" anyway? I'm frequently annoyed by files being saved somewhere I don't remember, or into huge folder hierarchies where I troublesomely navigate into. This is just simply stuff a user shouldn't need to think about. Couple your suggestions with a proper realtime search engine like we have with http://www.voidtools.com/ and this could be good.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#114

Post by dmethvin » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:52 PM UTC

perlgeek wrote: post #88

varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

I don't have a Windows system at hand now, so I can't check it... but didn't "Copy To" exist as "Context Menu -> Send to" before?

There is a "Send To Any Folder" utility that you can put in there, but it's not a standard feature.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#115

Post by nkassis » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:52 PM UTC

51Cards wrote: post #76

dhimes wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are the ipad and iphone taking off? It's really hard to learn to do things on those devices. It's cumbersome to turn off wifi and bluetooth to save battery. The control location makes no sense in the settings menu (to my mind, anyway). I was a HUGE Apple fan for the early Macs. I totally get what you are saying. But we LOST in the workplace. It was just too slow for the other folks in the office to use (of c…

I understand what you're saying, and despite the content of my above post I've never been an Apple guy, always a Windows one. Every time I went over to the Apple OS I felt I had one hand tied behind my back by lack of options. I also try to keep in mind that I'm not typical. I started on "PCs" in 1981 and have grown with them, this all comes naturally. So when I judge a UI I literally stick my Mom on it... she's 68.…

". I also try to keep in mind that I'm not typical. ... So when I judge a UI I literally stick my Mom on it... she's 68"

Well she no more typical a computer user than you are I would think. I like to see a curve of typical computer users age distribution (but I understand it would be a little skewed if it's hard for the older generations to use computers).

I feel that ribbon is designed for a select group of new users who need that kind of help. And I hope it's easy to disable it. It's fine for Microsoft to use something like this as a default mode as long as power users are able to turn that stuff off.

This is what turns me off on OS X, there is often no way to do certain more advanced things. Or it's hidden so well it requires hours of searching on the web for what plist to modify.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#116

Post by Stratoscope » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:53 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #69

cwbrandsma wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break thos…

Re: explorer-- then I probably used the wrong term. I was refering to the program you are using when you are on the desktop, and simply want to copy a file. Mac used to call this the "Finder," I believe. Now the idea that you actually have more problem with experienced users is interesting. I can see that in myself (damn new microwave!). But I still feel like it's no harder to learn, however, than what a bunch of ico…

You have the right terminology for both platforms. It's still called Finder on the Mac, and Windows Explorer or Explorer for short - in fact the executable is explorer.exe.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#117

Post by revscat » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:53 PM UTC

pointyhat wrote: post #99

Disclaimer: I'm a Windows and Mac OS X "power user" and I'm going to be rather critical of Apple who are seen as at the forefront of UI design. I'm probably going to get voted down for this. I'm a proponent of the Ribbon UI and I fucking hate toolbars in OS X. I use Outlook, Word, Excel and Windows Live Mail extensively. All of which have the ribbon UI. It turns out that for the sake of actually getting stuff done, t…

Two questions:

1) Why the anger?

2) What specific tasks are difficult for you to accomplish in Finder or Mail? The default icon set in Mail (seen here: http://i.imgur.com/zYmaw.png) do not seem to be difficult to parse. Ditto the Finder icons.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#118

Post by whatusername » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:54 PM UTC

kaishin wrote: post #52

krschultz wrote: post #45

The concept of the ribbon - tabs with buttons grouped by function - has a lot of advantages in theory. Obviously you can have bigger buttons which is always a good thing, and you allow each button to have sub-buttons which actually works out really well. I personally think Microsoft is on the right track from a high level perspective. The problem comes in the implementation. The graphic design is just horrible. Where…

I think the ribbon concept is inherently flawed because no human brain can remember such an overwhelming amount of information (what command in which function group in which tab).

And your suggestion is?

How is the ribbon any different to a hierarchial menu bar? (See the Gnome drop-down menu or the iOS Settings Menu).

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#119

Post by DevX101 » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:57 PM UTC

Before power users criticize the UI, keep in mind the recent study that 90% of computer users didn't know to use CTRL-F to search a document. Things that may be intuitive to you, may not be so to most other users.

Maybe MS did extensive usability testing, maybe they didn't. But that CTRL-F study was so surprising to me that I don't trust my instinct when it comes to judging the effectiveness of a user interface for hundreds of millions of people

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#120

Post by Yhippa » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 8:57 PM UTC

pointyhat wrote: post #99

Disclaimer: I'm a Windows and Mac OS X "power user" and I'm going to be rather critical of Apple who are seen as at the forefront of UI design. I'm probably going to get voted down for this. I'm a proponent of the Ribbon UI and I fucking hate toolbars in OS X. I use Outlook, Word, Excel and Windows Live Mail extensively. All of which have the ribbon UI. It turns out that for the sake of actually getting stuff done, t…

"Also, Microsoft research what you want rather than tell you what you're having (like Apple do)."

I feel that's one contributing factor to the bloat of Microsoft Office applications. Instead of having some governance around what features to include you have them including feature after feature that may not align to something more cohesive. As a result after the nth version you have a piece of software with features buried deep within the menus. The Ribbon does help out with this a lot but I still have trouble keeping track of which feature is buried within which sub-menu of an icon on the Ribbon.

As for Apple I completely agree with this. I really wish they had a unified experience like Ribbon UI. It really is a thing of beauty to use it in Windows Live Mail, Office, and even adopted by newer programs like Bizagi Process Modeler.