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Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

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Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#21

Post by horns4lyfe »

AnonMessiah wrote: post #17
mcaravey wrote: post #13

We’ve seen a lot of issues with hiring at the bakery I run. Minimum wage is already very high in Oregon at $14 (will likely increase next year). We pay more than that for our entry-level jobs, buts we’ve found it’s very hard to compete with the big companies. Our delivery driver position has to compete with $20/ hour starting wage + full benefits + $3000 signing bonus offered by Amazon contractors for zero experience…

If your business model isn't sustainable without exploiting your workers your business doesn't deserve to be open. "They don’t provide enough value" - labor is the thing that creates value.

If they were operating in a true free market, then you’d have a point, but they’re not. They’re are artificial constraints like min wage, unemployment insurance that pays more, etc. those aren’t market forces, they’re state forces. In that context, you’re implying without realizing that you’re ok with living in a world where the only businesses are the Amazons of the world or those that receive state subsidies. That’s not a world I want to live in.

Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#22

Post by 908B64B197 »

mcaravey wrote: post #13

We’ve seen a lot of issues with hiring at the bakery I run. Minimum wage is already very high in Oregon at $14 (will likely increase next year). We pay more than that for our entry-level jobs, buts we’ve found it’s very hard to compete with the big companies. Our delivery driver position has to compete with $20/ hour starting wage + full benefits + $3000 signing bonus offered by Amazon contractors for zero experience…

> They don’t provide enough value, and no customer is willing to pay the associate price increases to the product to compensate the wage increase. If everyone agreed that paying $10 on a croissant was acceptable, then sure we could pay more, but it’s not purely the decision of the business owners.

> I’m aware that we could just increase prices, pay better wages, etc. But there’s a very real risk to the business when making a large price change. We sell to a lot of other businesses, and they are sensitive to price changes. So while I’d love to hire and pay people extremely well, we can’t simply decide to pay more and have it work.

I don't think your business model is viable.

You'll need to cut costs somehow. Time to re-negotiate your lease?

Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#24

Post by AnonMessiah »

mcaravey wrote: post #20
AnonMessiah wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your business model isn't sustainable without exploiting your workers your business doesn't deserve to be open. "They don’t provide enough value" - labor is the thing that creates value.

No one said we are exploiting our workers. That's just an assumption being made because it is not possible to pay everyone huge wages. And I am aware that labor creates value, but not all labor is equal. No one questions if a junior developer should earn as much as a senior/partner/staff engineer, but it's very much the same here. I ask someone to roll some dough into a ball and that I'll pay them $17/hour to do that…

I would argue wage labor, and capitalism as a whole, are inherently exploitative. I came from a manual labor background; Ranch hand, construction, metal fab, which is why I'm so passionate about this. I'm used to being paid $~15/hr to do very physically demanding work, knowing that the contracts are often 10-15k for a job a crew of four guys can knock out in a day or two, including labor and materials the expense is ~3-5k plus indirect costs (tools, trucks, taxes etc.), so why shouldn't the remainder of the profit go to the people that generated it? I understand the margins are thinner in most retail and service situations but the same logic can be applied. If you were losing money on an employee, or even just breaking even, would you keep them on they payroll?

Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#25

Post by zumu »

xxpor wrote: post #15
mcaravey wrote: post #13

We’ve seen a lot of issues with hiring at the bakery I run. Minimum wage is already very high in Oregon at $14 (will likely increase next year). We pay more than that for our entry-level jobs, buts we’ve found it’s very hard to compete with the big companies. Our delivery driver position has to compete with $20/ hour starting wage + full benefits + $3000 signing bonus offered by Amazon contractors for zero experience…

So in other words then, you don't have a viable business...

I have a feeling lots of small businesses in Oregon are no longer viable. Whether this is the general public best interest, only time will tell.

I say this as a former Oregon service industry worker.

Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#26

Post by [deleted] »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #21
AnonMessiah wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your business model isn't sustainable without exploiting your workers your business doesn't deserve to be open. "They don’t provide enough value" - labor is the thing that creates value.

If they were operating in a true free market, then you’d have a point, but they’re not. They’re are artificial constraints like min wage, unemployment insurance that pays more, etc. those aren’t market forces, they’re state forces. In that context, you’re implying without realizing that you’re ok with living in a world where the only businesses are the Amazons of the world or those that receive state subsidies. That’…

[deleted]

Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#27

Post by AnonMessiah »

horns4lyfe wrote: post #21
AnonMessiah wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your business model isn't sustainable without exploiting your workers your business doesn't deserve to be open. "They don’t provide enough value" - labor is the thing that creates value.

If they were operating in a true free market, then you’d have a point, but they’re not. They’re are artificial constraints like min wage, unemployment insurance that pays more, etc. those aren’t market forces, they’re state forces. In that context, you’re implying without realizing that you’re ok with living in a world where the only businesses are the Amazons of the world or those that receive state subsidies. That’…

Businesses are only able to grow to the size of amazon because of the exploitation of the working class' labor and government subsidies. Minimum wage and unemployment aren't an artificial constraints, they are things that workers have exercised their collective strength in to win concessions from their employers via labor organizing and collective action. It's the same reason we (generally) have an 8 hour work day, a 5 day work week, holidays off, safety requirements, workman's comp, and child labor laws to name a few things.

Edit: fixed typo.

Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#28

Post by 908B64B197 »

AnonMessiah wrote: post #24
mcaravey wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one said we are exploiting our workers. That's just an assumption being made because it is not possible to pay everyone huge wages. And I am aware that labor creates value, but not all labor is equal. No one questions if a junior developer should earn as much as a senior/partner/staff engineer, but it's very much the same here. I ask someone to roll some dough into a ball and that I'll pay them $17/hour to do that…

I would argue wage labor, and capitalism as a whole, are inherently exploitative. I came from a manual labor background; Ranch hand, construction, metal fab, which is why I'm so passionate about this. I'm used to being paid $~15/hr to do very physically demanding work, knowing that the contracts are often 10-15k for a job a crew of four guys can knock out in a day or two, including labor and materials the expense is…

> knowing that the contracts are often 10-15k for a job a crew of four guys can knock out in a day or two, including labor and materials the expense is ~3-5k plus indirect costs (tools, trucks, taxes etc.), so why shouldn't the remainder of the profit go to the people that generated it?

Sounds like the crew of 4 should just incorporate...

Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#29

Post by 908B64B197 »

AnonMessiah wrote: post #27
horns4lyfe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were operating in a true free market, then you’d have a point, but they’re not. They’re are artificial constraints like min wage, unemployment insurance that pays more, etc. those aren’t market forces, they’re state forces. In that context, you’re implying without realizing that you’re ok with living in a world where the only businesses are the Amazons of the world or those that receive state subsidies. That’…

Businesses are only able to grow to the size of amazon because of the exploitation of the working class' labor and government subsidies. Minimum wage and unemployment aren't an artificial constraints, they are things that workers have exercised their collective strength in to win concessions from their employers via labor organizing and collective action. It's the same reason we (generally) have an 8 hour work day, a…

I'd argue that business grew the size of Amazon because of those things.

Amazon has economies of scale that smaller shops simply can't achieve. That makes certain business models only viable at their scale.

Re: Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

#30

Post by hazza_n_dazza »

xxpor wrote: post #15
mcaravey wrote: post #13

We’ve seen a lot of issues with hiring at the bakery I run. Minimum wage is already very high in Oregon at $14 (will likely increase next year). We pay more than that for our entry-level jobs, buts we’ve found it’s very hard to compete with the big companies. Our delivery driver position has to compete with $20/ hour starting wage + full benefits + $3000 signing bonus offered by Amazon contractors for zero experience…

So in other words then, you don't have a viable business...

thats what a small business is, just making ends meet. world over. same story. its where a decent lunch comes from.
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