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Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

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Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#271

Post by mlyle »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #231
mlyle wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our newer buildings don't have windows that open and have interior hallways, so some rooms don't have doors to outside. They have better building ventilation and per-room standalone air filters, though. Even just a single door open makes a big difference, IMO.

I've never attended a school that had doors to the outside from the classroom, honestly. Most, but not all, had windows that open, though.

The difference between temperate California (why bother with the expense of indoor hallway space?) and places where it snows. :D

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#272

Post by mlyle »

bit_logic wrote: post #220
mlyle wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a teacher at a school. - We eat outside. - We have filters upgraded to MERV-13 and the fans run the entire school day. - We have windows and doors open on all classrooms, except for A) a few that don't open outside, or B) when it's rainy/windy to the point it's not possible. We have small, secondary HEPA filters that we run in those circumstances. (Often, we're blaring AC or heat into a room with all doors and wi…

I’m very concerned that the mask debate for elementary school (and especially pre-school) is not considering the potential long term negative effects. The anti-mask side uses false arguments about breathing too much CO2. And the pro-mask side uses irrelevant arguments about how plenty of adults wear masks all day with no harmful effects (nurses/doctors). But we’re talking about young kids here. Pre-school (age 2 - 4)…

> But we’re talking about young kids here. Pre-school (age 2 - 4) is an especially critical time and early elementary is important too. This time is a short window in brain development when the brain is super elastic and learns many things. Much of language development isn’t just hearing and speaking, it’s also seeing the mouth movements. And this is the age when the brain learns how to recognize and display facial emotions. Is it possible by masking so much these young kids, we’re doing major damage to this learning process?

Maybe. But, on the flipside:

* We spend a lot of time outside and unmasked

* Many teachers use clear masks during phonics instruction and other critical times

* Wearing masks makes parents more comfortable with sending their kids to school, and so is enabling more social contact.

There are also some ancillary / random benefits, too. A big fraction of kids spend a big fraction of time up to age 7 fairly hearing impaired from low grade ear infections and congestion, and we're finally getting classroom audio amplification out at scale, adding a few decibels to teacher voices that will be helpful in the long term.

Also one more random note: emphasizing looking at the mouth so much for emotional reading is a mostly Western thing and not universal in human cultures. I'm guessing we end up with a generation of kids that read the eyes much more.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#273

Post by dude187 »

vwcx wrote: post #261
bit_logic wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m very concerned that the mask debate for elementary school (and especially pre-school) is not considering the potential long term negative effects. The anti-mask side uses false arguments about breathing too much CO2. And the pro-mask side uses irrelevant arguments about how plenty of adults wear masks all day with no harmful effects (nurses/doctors). But we’re talking about young kids here. Pre-school (age 2 - 4)…

Great. We acknowledge the importance of this developmental period. So what are the options, and which option contains a downside that is more palatable than the others? I.e. we fear the effects of total isolation of a four year old more than the risk of their stunted facial recognition practice etc etc

The risk of them getting sick is not significant. People are using their trumped up unjustified fears the media and government have whipped into them into demanding _some_ form of child abuse. The only thing they're willing to question is "which form?"

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#274

Post by BoorishBears »

_benedict wrote: post #239
BoorishBears wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same system. Heat recovery works both ways, maintaining heat out the outlets or maintaining heat at the inlets

This isn't true. Most MVHRs have a summer bypass mode in which they admit the exterior air without retaining any interior heat, but they do not cool the air entering the house.

The system in my apartment specifically calls out cooling recovery, but maybe that's not standard

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#275

Post by [deleted] »

mlyle wrote: post #267
dredmorbius wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presumes no further epidemics / pandemics, and discounts benefits to "normal" cold and flu season.

Do you think in normal years we'll still keep classroom windows open in the middle of flu season? Even in temperate California, the costs to classroom comfort and running HVAC to try and overcome outdoor temperatures is ridiculous. Good modern buildings are being built with more ventilation and heat recovery built in. Taking this over windows that open can be a reasonable trade. Yes, on the pandemic axis, many of the…

[deleted]

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#276

Post by dredmorbius »

mlyle wrote: post #267
dredmorbius wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presumes no further epidemics / pandemics, and discounts benefits to "normal" cold and flu season.

Do you think in normal years we'll still keep classroom windows open in the middle of flu season? Even in temperate California, the costs to classroom comfort and running HVAC to try and overcome outdoor temperatures is ridiculous. Good modern buildings are being built with more ventilation and heat recovery built in. Taking this over windows that open can be a reasonable trade. Yes, on the pandemic axis, many of the…

I don't know, though I'd suspect that plans for increased air exchange are being considered. For much of the state, through much of the year, open windows are a reasonably minor consideration. Heat-recovery air-exchange would be more efficient, and again, though I don't know what's being considered, I'd suspect that this is part of current discussions.

The chief challenge is that of retrofits vs. new construction. Much of California's school infrastructure is 50--100 years old.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#277

Post by mlyle »

dredmorbius wrote: post #276
mlyle wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think in normal years we'll still keep classroom windows open in the middle of flu season? Even in temperate California, the costs to classroom comfort and running HVAC to try and overcome outdoor temperatures is ridiculous. Good modern buildings are being built with more ventilation and heat recovery built in. Taking this over windows that open can be a reasonable trade. Yes, on the pandemic axis, many of the…

I don't know, though I'd suspect that plans for increased air exchange are being considered. For much of the state, through much of the year, open windows are a reasonably minor consideration. Heat-recovery air-exchange would be more efficient, and again, though I don't know what's being considered, I'd suspect that this is part of current discussions. The chief challenge is that of retrofits vs. new construction. Mu…

> I don't know, though I'd suspect that plans for increased air exchange are being considered.

In general, newer buildings with sealed windows have pretty good air exchange (with heat recovery) and filtration.

> For much of the state, through much of the year, open windows are a reasonably minor consideration.

Yah, tell that to me languishing masked a 95 degree classroom between building heat gain and a temperature in the 90s, and now ending up with a 60 degree room. It's workable, but it sucks, and we're wasting a lot of energy just to maintain a few degree delta T from outside with open windows. We've had a few weeks where the open windows have been great, but a lot more crummy weeks.

I'm a little jealous of those upstairs in the high school building that don't need to open windows.... and have nice temperatures in their classrooms... and have also had 0 secondary COVID cases. It's also really hard to conduct class when there's music, PE, etc, activities outside.

> The chief challenge is that of retrofits vs. new construction.

I thought we were talking in the context of a new school building being built without windows that open.

That said, windows are nice. If you have a class full of kids that are restless, sometimes opening windows and getting some outside noise or a breeze through the room changes the entire mood. It would be sad to lose that.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#278

Post by mlyle »

dude187 wrote: post #273
vwcx wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great. We acknowledge the importance of this developmental period. So what are the options, and which option contains a downside that is more palatable than the others? I.e. we fear the effects of total isolation of a four year old more than the risk of their stunted facial recognition practice etc etc

The risk of them getting sick is not significant. People are using their trumped up unjustified fears the media and government have whipped into them into demanding _some_ form of child abuse. The only thing they're willing to question is "which form?"

Significant hyperbole.

Elementary kids do not care one bit about wearing masks indoors. They picked up the habit quickly, don't complain, and now put the rest of us to shame. Indeed, they often don't bother (not out of fear, but just forgetting or not bothering) to remove when going outside.

And, the risk is much more significant than you imply, and the risk to us who work with them is substantial.

I'm looking forward to masks going away eventually for a lot of reasons (though I kinda hope they become normal for e.g. the worst month of flu season, like in many other parts of the world), but calling it abuse is just ridiculous.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#279

Post by nikolay »

iso8859-1 wrote: post #163
nikolay wrote: post #85

How about ionizing the air where it's cold and impractical to open the windows? There are nice devices, which have certification, and don't produce ozone. When I traveled to Europe this year, I saw ionizers in the Munich airport and nowhere else, unfortunately.

Plants also produce negative ions. May be the cheaper and prettier option.

You need a lot of plants though! NASA had some quality studies on types of plants.

Re: Why don’t we just open the windows? Covid-19 prevention lost in translation

#280

Post by _benedict »

BoorishBears wrote: post #274
_benedict wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't true. Most MVHRs have a summer bypass mode in which they admit the exterior air without retaining any interior heat, but they do not cool the air entering the house.

The system in my apartment specifically calls out cooling recovery, but maybe that's not standard

Do you happen to know what make and model? The only cooling functions I have found besides summer bypass involve a separate cooling loop that ultimately relies on a heat pump. I'd be interested to read about an MVHR with this facility.
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