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How to Save a Ski Town

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Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#261
post #5

I quite like the rules in the Tirol - you can only own property if you live there. No second homes, no big hotels, no renting out houses. Just small owner operated hotels and locals.

Wouldn't this mean people who earn enough to rent, but not buy (ex. service workers) wouldn't be able to live there (since there wouldn't be a stock of rental housing they can rent), and thus would have to commute?

I don't know about Tirol, but in Banff, the restrictions don't prevent construction of multi-unit buildings specifically for renters. I don't know exactly how ownership of these buildings work, but I think they're owned by the town through some non-profit org.

I don't live in Banff and I'm sure there are issues with this system, but it seems pretty reasonable. Service workers would definitely be priced out if every condo/apartment was owned privately and available as a short-term rental.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#262
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both of those cases, that income has substantial nexus in the state, though, with the employer generally being located in the taxing state.

I suspect we haven't heard the last of these cases though. As I understand the NH and MA case, this is about continuing to collect state income tax from NH residents who are no longer commuting. Presumably, it does not apply to remote NH residents who never commuted to a MA location. (The situation of course gets even more complicated when a NH resident is remote to a company that has offices in many states. Why woul…

> (The situation of course gets even more complicated when a NH resident is remote to a company that has offices in many states. Why would MA have any particular right to state income tax just because an MA office is closer?)

I do not see it as complicated. Either a state is restricted to being able to tax income from work performed within its geographic boundaries, or it is not. If it is not, then I do not see why every state cannot tax every single employee of any business that has any presence in the state.

Very surprised this Supreme Court declined to hear it with only 2 Justices disagreeing.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#263
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect we haven't heard the last of these cases though. As I understand the NH and MA case, this is about continuing to collect state income tax from NH residents who are no longer commuting. Presumably, it does not apply to remote NH residents who never commuted to a MA location. (The situation of course gets even more complicated when a NH resident is remote to a company that has offices in many states. Why woul…

> (The situation of course gets even more complicated when a NH resident is remote to a company that has offices in many states. Why would MA have any particular right to state income tax just because an MA office is closer?) I do not see it as complicated. Either a state is restricted to being able to tax income from work performed within its geographic boundaries, or it is not. If it is not, then I do not see why e…

It's complicated in that states have a bunch of different rules, are apparently inconsistent in applying them, and there is also apparently not clear precedent. I agree that this seems a case tailor made for SCOTUS to have taken.

Here's just one "it's complicated" example. Say I lived in NH (I don't) and worked remote. (And let's simplify and imagine I never went to an office.) My closest office would be, in fact, be in Massachusetts but HQ is in North Carolina. Why would I pay MA given that I don't live or work there? Maybe I should pay NC? But now you've created a situation where heavily remote companies should establish HQs in no income tax states.

As I also noted, there are a bunch of theoretical rules related to business travel that haven't been historically enforced in most cases but seem to be increasingly so. Which may mean that a lot of employees may increasingly have to file multiple state returns depending upon various thresholds.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#264
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (The situation of course gets even more complicated when a NH resident is remote to a company that has offices in many states. Why would MA have any particular right to state income tax just because an MA office is closer?) I do not see it as complicated. Either a state is restricted to being able to tax income from work performed within its geographic boundaries, or it is not. If it is not, then I do not see why e…

It's complicated in that states have a bunch of different rules, are apparently inconsistent in applying them, and there is also apparently not clear precedent. I agree that this seems a case tailor made for SCOTUS to have taken. Here's just one "it's complicated" example. Say I lived in NH (I don't) and worked remote. (And let's simplify and imagine I never went to an office.) My closest office would be, in fact, be…

Pro athletes already have to file in the many states in which they perform: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2017/04/18/inco...

(It’s a small enough group of people and the per-game incomes high enough to go after as compared to my income for the days I attend a conference somewhere.)

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#265
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's complicated in that states have a bunch of different rules, are apparently inconsistent in applying them, and there is also apparently not clear precedent. I agree that this seems a case tailor made for SCOTUS to have taken. Here's just one "it's complicated" example. Say I lived in NH (I don't) and worked remote. (And let's simplify and imagine I never went to an office.) My closest office would be, in fact, be…

Pro athletes already have to file in the many states in which they perform: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2017/04/18/inco... (It’s a small enough group of people and the per-game incomes high enough to go after as compared to my income for the days I attend a conference somewhere.)

I think I knew that. And I've also known execs who spent substantial time between multiple offices who tracked for tax purposes.

However, for example, Concur now has an auditing service through E&Y for business travel in the US generally. It was implemented fairly recently and I unsurprisingly haven't traveled much but I did have one trip that triggered a "Is it correct you worked in this state for these three days" email so I guess I'll see what happens.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#266
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this is a pretty good example of a non-constructive response created by polarization. Obviously we are only interested in the returns to modifying (b) under the constraints of (a). Obviously markets can price this kind of thing. But no, let's obsess over any technicality in a critique of our ideology (in your case, the deregulation position) until the Sun explodes.

> Obviously markets can price this kind of thing. The markets have priced this kind of thing. TFA is about the result. You could argue that the situation described in TFA is contigent or temporary or something like that, and to the extent that everything about any town fits that description, sure, you're right. But it's no help to anyone to say "oh, this situation will be different in 50 years anyway". You could (and…

>But it's no help to anyone to say "oh, this situation will be different in 50 years anyway".

Yes, that's why I covered mitigations in the paragraphs you ignored.

>You could (and probably would) argue that the problems described in TFA arise from the political control [...]

No, I explicitly rejected that argument in my original post. In fact, the very next sentence after the one you quoted says this:

>But we can't expect that construction to materialize where the market isn't convinced it's necessary, simply because it would meet our social objectives.

This is why I don't bother arguing. People don't even read what you said.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#267
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously markets can price this kind of thing. The markets have priced this kind of thing. TFA is about the result. You could argue that the situation described in TFA is contigent or temporary or something like that, and to the extent that everything about any town fits that description, sure, you're right. But it's no help to anyone to say "oh, this situation will be different in 50 years anyway". You could (and…

>But it's no help to anyone to say "oh, this situation will be different in 50 years anyway". Yes, that's why I covered mitigations in the paragraphs you ignored. >You could (and probably would) argue that the problems described in TFA arise from the political control [...] No, I explicitly rejected that argument in my original post. In fact, the very next sentence after the one you quoted says this: >But we can't ex…

I really don't know what your issue is here.

Your original top-level comment more or less opens with an affirmation that markets will do the right thing:

> The market adjusts if it is correct to adjust, at least probably, according to the probably efficient market hypothesis. The question is whether it's correct for the market to adjust.

But that's not the question. The first question is whether this hypothesis is correct, and there's plenty of evidence that it's an inadequate model of the real world, particularly in contexts that involve external factors that cannot be controlled (like geography and federal ownership).

Then you move to:

> So yes, the solution to a durable increase in housing demand is to build more housing.

But a solid part of TFA was about how "build more housing" is not an option in these towns, at least not in the same that it might be in other geographic locations.

Shortly thereafter, you introduce a question that I don't see comes up from TFA at all:

> What about a transient increase in demand?

Nobody in the TFA is discussing a transient increase in demand, unless you are trying to classify "we live in a time where a bunch of people can afford to spend $1.8M on a 2nd home in Vail" as a transient phenomenon.

> Over the long-term, concealing a durable increase in demand with stringent tenant protections creates a double standard and a new kind of inequality.

There's a serious argument that the phenomena described in TFA are not a "durable increase in demand", but a more complicated pattern. Why? Well, first of all because the housing stock that has been subject to price pressure is in a different category from the stock sought out by the local workforce. Although the pricing across categories (e.g. a 5k sq ft mountain home vs. a studio apartment above a restaurant) are connected, it's not simple linear relationship, and a town could have a surplus of one and shortage of the other, and it would not cause the sort of pricing shifts that would occur in a homogenous market. Second, because the reason for the mismatch in supply/demand is not just that new construction hasn't happened yet, but because new construction is actively discouraged by the geography and the local politics.

So, these mountain resort towns are not in the same situation as, say, Atlanta, which simply has a large number of people who want to move there, across many different socio-economic demographics, and where the construction of new houses, while not entirely free of political control, is not functionally prevented from any attempt to meet demand.

> But we can't expect that construction to materialize where the market isn't convinced it's necessary, simply because it would meet our social objectives.

I didn't explicitly cite this sentence because it just seems so obviously misguided to me that I tried to get at the bigger picture. You appear to see a rational, efficient market making decisions ("where the market isn't convinced that it's necessary"), whereas I see something quite different at work.

> And we can't ignore the future to meet social objectives right now.

We regularly and intentionally do this. It just typically works out that the "social objectives" that are met by ignoring the future are the ones set by people who already have power and wealth.

OK, I think I see the problem. It's not that I didn't read what you said. It's that I don't agree with you.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#268
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your typical Swiss ski resort village is stacked full of multilevel apartments, cleverly disguised as rustic chalets: https://chalet.myswitzerland.com/holiday-rentals/grindelwald... Superior public transport (quite a few villages ban cars entirely), much higher wages and ruthless exploitation of immigrant labor are also factors though.

> exploitation of immigrant labor are also factors though. I thought Switzerland does not have lot of immigration.

Switzerland has more immigrants as a portion of total population than any country outside of Australia, Jordan, Persian Gulf states and a bunch of micro-states/city-states[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#269
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is that while maybe wages will be pushed up a bit, eventually the equilibrium is still a situation we won't like. Like long commutes and bad living situations.

But is it a bad equilibrium? If someone is willing to trade the time and cost of a long commute, can’t we trust that they decided it’s worth it? I keep hearing how we need to make the Bay Area affordable, but I’m also thinking “price is a signal” and people deciding to live elsewhere is exactly what we want . I spent time in a developing country and the government is struggling to creating new economic centers but fa…

Idk, we do live in a bit of a climate emergency so using government policy (not the free market) to discourage density seems like a bad way to achieve that. Also I guess I left out the worst bit of the high cost of living equilibrium. Homelessness has been connected pretty cleanly to high housing costs. It isn't even that surprising, people find moving difficult and even more so when you're at the bottom of the economy just scraping by and then you actually run out of money. There's also a common feeling that forcing people to move is a bad thing. That seems at least reasonable to me.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#270
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is that while maybe wages will be pushed up a bit, eventually the equilibrium is still a situation we won't like. Like long commutes and bad living situations.

But is it a bad equilibrium? If someone is willing to trade the time and cost of a long commute, can’t we trust that they decided it’s worth it? I keep hearing how we need to make the Bay Area affordable, but I’m also thinking “price is a signal” and people deciding to live elsewhere is exactly what we want . I spent time in a developing country and the government is struggling to creating new economic centers but fa…

Yes, often it is a bad equilibrium. When prices rise, taxes rise, and often people who were able to live somewhere no longer can. They're forced to move, eventhough they'd rather stay. This also happened in the bay area, where people were involuntarily forced out of their homes.

See for an example: https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/03/23/after-decades-in-wic...

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