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Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

batsov.com

191–200 of 675 posts

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#191

I've been meaning to write almost exactly this blog post for a while now, glad that someone else did it. Two things that I think are worth calling out: 1. In many ways Apple's anti-competitive behaviour on iOS/iPadOS is a blessing. It's one of the few things that keep Chromium's dominance in check. Of course, it's not great that Apple are stifling innovation like this, but consider the alternative: Chromium dominance…

> 1. In many ways Apple's anti-competitive behaviour on iOS/iPadOS is a blessing. It's one of the few things that keep Chromium's dominance in check. Of course, it's not great that Apple are stifling innovation like this, but consider the alternative: Chromium dominance on all platforms. I think it’s worth noting that (at least I believe) the reason apple limit the usage of other browser engines in iOS isn’t (mostly)…

I don't disagree that is their publicly stated reason for the limitation. Them having the ulterior motive of stifling PWAs on iOS and competition for mobile Safari is a common theory.

Whether they do have ulterior motives or not, the effect is that innovation is stifled.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#192
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No web developer old enough will ever forget, I promise you that.

I have not forgotten, but Gates and Ballmer are gone and the market situation for MS is totally different. People don't have to take their Evil Empire monopolist crap of the past.

That doesn't stop them from trying though, and there are plenty of examples from recent times that prove that the difference between the old MS and the new MS are much smaller than their PR department would like you to believe.

The biggest difference is that the new MS is no longer selling you software but access to software.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#193

I used to hold the same opinion: Google controls the world because everything is Blink/Chromium based! Must use Firefox to protest! Then I looked closer look at the history of Chromium and Blink. The reality is that a lot of the other "Chromium-based" browsers actually only use the Blink renderer. They don't use many (if any) other Chromium components other than probably V8. In ancient times, Blink itself was a fork…

Almost all of Blink has been rewritten from the time of the fork from webkit.

and almost all of Webkit has been rewritten from the time of the fork from khtml.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#194
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Firefox version are you on?

Always latest - it updates itself everywhere. So if there was a change, it was so minor I haven't even noticed it, less complain about it. But either way: what was the breaking UI change months ago again?

https://ubuntuhandbook.org/index.php/2021/06/firefox-89-0-re...

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I used to hold the same opinion: Google controls the world because everything is Blink/Chromium based! Must use Firefox to protest! The end users don't care about who controls what. They care about having a simple, fast browser who just works.

> They care about having a simple, fast browser who just works. And the "just works" part won't happen without the other browsers' competition. It will become "just works with other Google products, for those who hold the same values as Google holds".

Case in point: on a fresh install of Ubuntu googling for adblock using Firefox (yes, I know, stupid) leads straight to Google ramming Chrome down your throat.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#196

It's a depressing situation, particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim. It makes one seriously wonder whether it is feasible at all to maintain an independent open-source web browser in 2021. People tend to blame Mozilla's management and I'm sure there have been management failures but I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser. It s…

Mozilla Corporation, which represents the majority of activity on Firefox, is not a non-profit. That's only Mozilla Foundation, and it's never really been clear to me what their role is, regarding Firefox.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#197

It's a depressing situation, particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim. It makes one seriously wonder whether it is feasible at all to maintain an independent open-source web browser in 2021. People tend to blame Mozilla's management and I'm sure there have been management failures but I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser. It s…

I have to strongly agree with your last point - I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry. Perhaps it's just the loud minority, but to me it seems that most of them have never worked on an user-facing product (for-profit or not). Yes, users can themselves explicitly communicate feedback regarding the product or its features, and no, most of them don't do tha…

We live in a time when wrong think can get you cancelled and Firefox has demonstrated a strong ideological bias towards those groups that love to engage in cancel culture. The telemetry might be entirely technical in nature but both ability and the motive are there for it to be something much worse. At a minimum Firefox needs 100% transparency into who had access to the data, how it is secured, its exact uses, and timely updates if any of the above changes. There's too much potential for an "overzealous staffer" to take this technical only telemetry (whatever that might mean) and have it analyzed and released for their own purposes.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#198
the thing is, mozilla and firefox is the embodiment of a valiant battle for a sane, honest, human-centric digital universe. a battle that was fought and lost in the last decade. dystopia has won and it doesn't think of itself as dystopic, it thinks that it is doing God's work

there is no point crying over spilled milk, hoping that it can reconstitute into a jug. post-mortems might useful but they need to account for the tectonic continental plate drifts that tamed even extremely well funded actors like Microsoft

what the broader open source community should focus on is where the next choke point will materialize and ensure the same mistakes do not happen again

assuming there is a second chance

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's worse, I think it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for another project to start from either a fork or from nothing and provide an alternative, as developing a browser (with its own rendering engine) is extremely complicated, comparable to an operating system.

The rendering engine part is kind of the least problematic bit, because there are three primary options (Gecko, WebKit, and Blink) and they're all pretty up-to-date and open source. You could also pick up Goanna, KHTML or Servo if you didn't want to use any of the big three as they're open too, but there'd be work to do on them. There's no particularly good reason to start your own renderer from scratch.

I'd agree that there's no good reason to start your own renderer from scratch, but I'd argue that there's a great benefit having a competing rendering engine (in this case, Gecko). If Firefox (and, by extension, Gecko) were to die, or fall into obscurity, there would be nothing stopping harmful proposals from being added to various web specifications[1], which is what I was getting at.

[1] https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#200

It's a depressing situation, particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim. It makes one seriously wonder whether it is feasible at all to maintain an independent open-source web browser in 2021. People tend to blame Mozilla's management and I'm sure there have been management failures but I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser. It s…

> So Mozilla tries to move in Chrome's direction, removing configuration options and "dumbing down" the UI, which frustrates its existing user base (including me) while apparently also failing to eat into Chrome's market share.

Well, no surprise there. Technical people like us experiment. Mainstream users just use what they know, and what their techie friends recommend them. They're not suddenly going to use Firefox now that it's more like chrome. They'll just use the real chrome. And they don't like touching something that works.

Note that this approach didn't work for Microsoft either (and they went a lot more 'like chrome' than Mozilla!). They're having some success with Edge but it's mainly because they push it really hard to enterprise users with their O365 integration, so people are getting to know it at work and bringing it home.

> [...] If open-source projects can't access the same data as proprietary ones do, we can't expect them to be able to react to user demands in the same way, and so we can't expect them to be able to compete in today's market.

I don't want them to become like the proprietary browsers in this regard. Telemetry is not an all-seeing oracle, it's often used to confirm their own bias because it doesn't say why the users like something or what they'd prefer. What they should be doing is listening to users instead of blindly trusting telemetry. Google and Microsoft make the same mistake but they already have a monopoly on the browser and OS markets respectively so their mistakes are easily absorbed. It's not like their products have become a lot better since they started relying on telemetry so much.

But no, I won't allow telemetry and I block it for Microsoft and Google too in my DNS. The reason I use Firefox is because I don't want to "get with the program". If I have to change my ideology, I would be changed so much that the primary reason to use Firefox is no longer relevant.

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