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How to Save a Ski Town

outsideonline.com

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Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#151

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

SwagGrocery wrote: post #39

There are a lot of comments about eliminating investment properties and providing subsidized housing. Why don't we let the market work itself out? Let's see how magical Crested Butte is in a few years with no intervention. I suspect you'll be able to get a nice ski-in/ski-out condo at a significant discount when there are no longer any businesses open in the town.

Another way of describing this process might be "let the people who work in the town take all of the pain, and essentially force them to leave, and only at the very conclusion of the process will those with the money to own 2nd homes there feel any noticeable pain, at which point, the town's economy will have been decimated, and a massive amount of opportunity cost will be required in order to restart it".

No thanks.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#152

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

jeffbee wrote: post #85
mastax wrote: post #2

I imagine the Swiss have dealt with similar situations, I wonder what they would suggest? Pay employees way more is probably step one. I'm the "build more housing" guy, but it looks like the Swiss have chosen a different path?

In Switzerland I can walk out of my urban flat carrying my skis, get on a train, and get dumped at the base of a lift an hour or two later. One or two-transfer public transportation from city center to base lift. There's no reason you have to live at the ski areas.

For the skier, maybe not. How about the line cook who prepares breakfast at a hotel, diner or other restaurant? How about the people who work for the search & rescue or fire departments, or the police? How about the staff at the hardware store that sells to the cook, the police and the school teachers?

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#153

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

lbarrow wrote: post #104
vkou wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market is precisely what gave this particular makeup of voters and activist home owners the keys to the kingdom. If you can't afford to pay to play in that municipality, you don't get to vote.

The "free market" didn't give those activists the right to veto development, the political processes and rules of their communities did. It's silly to treat that veto as a natural result, it's just as contingent as any other political rule.

How did they get to be able to vote? As TFA describes, they could afford property within the incorporated propery of CB, unlike those forced to find places to live outside it. Their wealth gave them access to the vote, and they are using their votes to further their own interests.

Being able to buy whatever you want for whatever price works for you and the seller sounds quite a bit like a "free market" to me.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#154

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

scythe wrote: post #142

>Unchained from their desks, the hordes of newly remote white-collar workers descended upon all the magical mountain towns, and in just one year, the median list price for a home in Crested Butte jumped 40 percent, to $895,000. Rents soared, too—20 to 40 percent in Colorado ski towns like Crested Butte, according to one June 2021 report. The market adjusts if it is correct to adjust, at least probably, according to t…

> I generally support housing construction wherever it's fiscally sound.

TFA describes a town where (a) construction is limited by forces beyond the town's control (geography, federal land ownership) and (b) construction (at least of certain kinds of housing) is prevented by existing residents who vote against it.

The state of housing construction in Crested Butte does not sound as if it is governed by any sort of notion of "fiscal soundness" at all.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#155

Post by fragmede »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #146
KingMachiavelli wrote: post #86

The problem is pretty simple; the stock of mountain resort towns has not kept up to satisfy demand. Imagine 15 or 20 years ago, a trip to a somewhat remote mountain town had a lot of inconveniences like bad internet, unpredictable weather/travel conditions, etc. In the current year, it's very easy to book an entire trip to Vail/Tahoe in 30 minutes. The amenities and infrastructure are decent making it a viable place…

The problem described in this article is not a shortage of housing for those who want 2nd homes in places like Crested Butte (although that may well be a problem of its own). The problem being described is the infeasability of the people who work in these towns to be able to live there. You can double or triple the number of mountain resort towns, and perhaps that would ease the "challenge" of being able to afford a…

By bringing down the price of a 2nd home in a mountain resort town, the locals can also more easily afford to live in one. That is, if it were easy to magically create more mountain towns, without other effects on supply and demand.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#156

Post by noduerme »

teeray wrote: post #141
KingMachiavelli wrote: post #86

The problem is pretty simple; the stock of mountain resort towns has not kept up to satisfy demand. Imagine 15 or 20 years ago, a trip to a somewhat remote mountain town had a lot of inconveniences like bad internet, unpredictable weather/travel conditions, etc. In the current year, it's very easy to book an entire trip to Vail/Tahoe in 30 minutes. The amenities and infrastructure are decent making it a viable place…

> the local lodging industry absolutely hated competition since those 15+ person family reunion style groups were paying half as much on a VRBO... It's not just the cost--the market has changed. Hotels are like cable companies or pre-iTunes record labels. People prefer renting a private, detached, house rather than a bunch of hotel rooms because it's a nicer experience having a shared space with your whole group away…

There also are wealthy people who just buy or rent an entire floor of a hotel or a cruise ship suite as a second (or fifth) residence. So according to the logic of Airbnb, the entire town is essentially now a hotel of this nature.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#157

Post by SmellTheGlove »

zz865 wrote: post #5

I quite like the rules in the Tirol - you can only own property if you live there. No second homes, no big hotels, no renting out houses. Just small owner operated hotels and locals.

What happens if you live there, and then you don't? Are you forced to sell?

I don't have a house in a mountain resort area, but I do have one by the beach (not on it, but 5 minutes walking) in a town/area that gets significant summer tourist traffic. I have it because that's where I lived for a decade, but pre-COVID, I moved to the bay area for career reasons. I plan to live in it again one day, so I'd hate to have to sell it - in the meantime it's rented to people we know at a significant discount (like, a third of market rate these days) because they needed somewhere to live and we don't want a vacant home across the country. We didn't intend to buy a second home or a rental, but it became that. What happens in that sort of situation in places like Tirol?

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#158

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

fragmede wrote: post #155
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem described in this article is not a shortage of housing for those who want 2nd homes in places like Crested Butte (although that may well be a problem of its own). The problem being described is the infeasability of the people who work in these towns to be able to live there. You can double or triple the number of mountain resort towns, and perhaps that would ease the "challenge" of being able to afford a…

By bringing down the price of a 2nd home in a mountain resort town, the locals can also more easily afford to live in one. That is, if it were easy to magically create more mountain towns, without other effects on supply and demand.

The gap between what locals can afford and what the houses generally purchased as 2nd homes cost is vast. You saying "bring down the price" as if that's a fairly trivial thing, but to bring them down enough to make them affordable for locals is not a trivial thing at all. I suspect that in general, it just isn't possible.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#159

Post by topkai22 »

boringg wrote: post #50

One of the biggest problems that is hitting ski towns is the hyper cheap season passes that everyone buys. The model has created a huge surge of demand for people to go skiing in winter which has put pressure on the local ski towns (more short term rental demands, second home buyers) and the resources at ski mountains (aka the insane lines on a good ski day now). It's interesting because it has allowed a lot more peo…

Interesting theory, but overall skier visits are at best flat for the last 20 years (see https://www.statista.com/statistics/206544/estimated-number-... . Also see the briefings I get at ski instructor meetings every year.)

I guess it could mean that the resorts in the Ikon/Epic networks are experiencing these problems while out of network locations are seeing slumping business (which does anecdotally appears true) but I don’t think that alone is driving the issues.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#160

Post by topkai22 »

topkai22 wrote: post #159
boringg wrote: post #50

One of the biggest problems that is hitting ski towns is the hyper cheap season passes that everyone buys. The model has created a huge surge of demand for people to go skiing in winter which has put pressure on the local ski towns (more short term rental demands, second home buyers) and the resources at ski mountains (aka the insane lines on a good ski day now). It's interesting because it has allowed a lot more peo…

Interesting theory, but overall skier visits are at best flat for the last 20 years (see https://www.statista.com/statistics/206544/estimated-number-... . Also see the briefings I get at ski instructor meetings every year.) I guess it could mean that the resorts in the Ikon/Epic networks are experiencing these problems while out of network locations are seeing slumping business (which does anecdotally appears true) b…

I’ll follow up and say I think one place that the networked season passes might be driving on the real estate front is that I think they make it less attractive for “locals” to get started skiing and to stay local. The massive increase in day pass prices means where once someone in Seattle, Sacramento or Denver might just try a few days skiing to see if they like it, they now have to make a much more major commitment up front to get into the sport. Those “locals” would just drive in an hour or two rather than rent a ski town property.

The multi resort passes make it much more attractive to take a dedicated ski vacation than just check out a different nearby resort.

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