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A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

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Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#21

Post by jakelazaroff »

rasengan wrote: post #4

As the author well notes, a Constitutional Convention, unchecked and unregulated, could be means for disaster. We take for granted our Bill of Rights, on the daily. That said, luckily there's an entire process to follow to introduce and put into law any legislation. I was myself unaware of Article V. The speed at which the internet went from STOP SOPA to DEPLATFORM AND CENSOR EVERYTHING startles me, and if that is an…

That's a pretty rich critique, given the staggeringly censorious regime you imposed after your hostile takeover of Freenode.

Context:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27286628

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27246755

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27495358

Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#23

Post by throwaway0a5e »

kadoban wrote: post #14
travisgriggs wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are on the left, imagine the new constitution specifically forbidding abortion. > If you are on the right, imagine it specifically forbidding private gun ownership. What if it became a 3/5s compromise sort of deal? No more fights over guns (we get to keep ‘em) and no more fights over abortion (women decide). We have that sort of today, but what if it were specifically enshrined as a formal recognition that e…

Are you by any chance seriously putting forth the 3/5s compromise as a positive outcome?

And what were the alternatives?

Do something that gives the south too much power and slavery will soon be too deeply enshrined in federal law to be rid of. Count slaves as 0/5ths like the north wanted and the south won't ratify the constitution and you'll get two nations, one of which definitely won't be outlawing slavery.

The past is full of situations where people needed to chart the least bad course through a sea of bad options and they wound up doing an ok job at that. It's easy to sit in an air conditioned ivory tower and cook up internet comments that shit on those people for not having modern morals but other than the internet points I don't know of any useful end that behavior serves.

Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#24

Post by brightball »

travisgriggs wrote: post #12
huitzitziltzin wrote: post #5

An Article V convention is in my opinion the most thoroughly boneheaded idea in American politics (which is saying a lot). There is no way _at all_ to constrain the agenda _or_ the outcome per the current constitution. In particular you can’t say (afaik) “we are calling an article V convention solely on issue X.” The linked article describes this as the “runaway convention problem.” If you are on the left, imagine th…

> If you are on the left, imagine the new constitution specifically forbidding abortion. > If you are on the right, imagine it specifically forbidding private gun ownership. What if it became a 3/5s compromise sort of deal? No more fights over guns (we get to keep ‘em) and no more fights over abortion (women decide). We have that sort of today, but what if it were specifically enshrined as a formal recognition that e…

Ultimately, the only compromise that will ever work is a 10th Amendment style compromise where the decision is on a state by state basis.

At that moment, people will get a lot more involved in local politics because national politics won’t matter all that much beyond national defense.

Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#25

Post by joe_the_user »

chrismcb wrote: post #9
huitzitziltzin wrote: post #5

An Article V convention is in my opinion the most thoroughly boneheaded idea in American politics (which is saying a lot). There is no way _at all_ to constrain the agenda _or_ the outcome per the current constitution. In particular you can’t say (afaik) “we are calling an article V convention solely on issue X.” The linked article describes this as the “runaway convention problem.” If you are on the left, imagine th…

There are a lot of people who want term limits. Even for their own candidates. I don't think we were ever supposed to have career congresspeople. Part of the problem is they start to lose touch with their constituents. I don't know the right length 2-4 for representatives and 1-2 for senators.

There are a lot of people who want term limits. Even for their own candidates. I don't think we were ever supposed to have career congresspeople.

That illustrates how ridiculous ideas get traction. Term limits are inherently anti-democratic. They don't end entrenched power but move it to unelected bureaucrats and lobbyists.

I don't think we were ever supposed to have career congresspeople.

The framers of the Constitution imagined wealthy gentleman farmers like themselves alternating positions in power. But term limits wouldn't bring that back, they just make sure that membership in congress would be even more held by the type of person who jump from CEO to congress to Federal bureaucracy and so-forth, reinforcing the "permanent government" situation that already quite strong here.

Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#26

Post by tomrod »

jdpedrie wrote: post #10
markdown wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those flaws are pretty massive though. Legalising slavery and letting anyone and his dog own guns? That barbaric and doesn't belong in any constitution in 2021.

Those two things are in no way comparable.

But they are, as both are no longer necessary in a civil, functioning society. Consider Europe, much of Asia, which have been able to achieve democracy, stability, and little need for open carry or slavery.

Now, one has a lot of open supporters (gun rights exceeding the US second amendment, in that the regulated militia component gets left out).

Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#27

Post by bryanrasmussen »

fuckcensorship wrote: post #16
markdown wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those flaws are pretty massive though. Legalising slavery and letting anyone and his dog own guns? That barbaric and doesn't belong in any constitution in 2021.

> Legalising slavery The original constitution did not address slavery until the passing of the thirteenth amendment in 1865 which made it illegal except as punishment for a convicted crime.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/three-fifths-compromise

it's true that the word slavery is not used, but if you talk about free people and then note that there are not free people and make political rules for how those non free people should be counted, then in a slave holding society it becomes somewhat obvious who you're talking about.

Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#28

Post by lettergram »

> Article V allows the states to call a Constitutional Convention if two-thirds (or 34) of 50 states submit a resolution proposing an amendment on one or many topics (or just a general call for convention without proposing a specific topic). Amendments proposed during a Constitutional Convention must also be ratified by three-fourths of the states. Since the first Constitutional Convention, Congress has proposed 33 constitutional amendments and 27 have been ratified.

In other words, it’s highly unlikely anything would pass a convention of states. That said, we are getting close given the dramatic over reach by the federal government

Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#29

Post by FpUser »

markdown wrote: post #7
prepend wrote: post #3

I would not trust the present day to create a viable constitution. It would likely be dominated by whatever party is in charge to perpetuate their specific platform rather than to establish principle based rules. The original constitution is really kind of amazing at how well it’s functioned. It has flaws, obviously, but seems really effective.

Those flaws are pretty massive though. Legalising slavery and letting anyone and his dog own guns? That barbaric and doesn't belong in any constitution in 2021.

I am very much against slavery even as a punishment. I think it is a shame that the US allows it in such form.

Guns, I am not so sure. There are numerous benefits to be able to own guns besides protection.

Re: A Constitutional Convention is closer than you think (2019)

#30

Post by tadfisher »

kadoban wrote: post #14
travisgriggs wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are on the left, imagine the new constitution specifically forbidding abortion. > If you are on the right, imagine it specifically forbidding private gun ownership. What if it became a 3/5s compromise sort of deal? No more fights over guns (we get to keep ‘em) and no more fights over abortion (women decide). We have that sort of today, but what if it were specifically enshrined as a formal recognition that e…

Are you by any chance seriously putting forth the 3/5s compromise as a positive outcome?

In a sense, it is, because otherwise the original Constitution may not have been ratified and a possible outcome would be the Balkanization of North America.

In another, it justified and enshrined in foundational law the abhorrent practice of chattel slavery, and allowed the United States to form a strong centralized government capable of colonizing and subjugating the native people who were living there for thousands of years.

These can both be true at the same time.

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