A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#21

Post by grp000 » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

DFHippie wrote: post #15

akudha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my first thought too. They are spending so much money on gear and employing someone full time - wouldn't it be cheaper to just drain it? There must be a reason they aren't doing it. Also, he can't be there 24 hours - what happens if a bird lands on the water at night?

I assume the reason is that draining it just moves the toxins elsewhere. No one else wants to drink this stuff or have it in their surface water either.

Might also be an issue of rainwater collection, and then the enormous cost of filling the pit.

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#22

Post by bmitc » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

I saw this video yesterday and one thing I wondered was, why isn't the company legally, and thus financially and criminally, held responsible for this disaster? If I as an individual dump a bunch of toxic waste, especially something that kills thousands of animals, then I would be held responsible in a vice grip-like manner. I never understand why if something is done by a company, or individual with large wealth, but at massive scale, they can simply get away with it.

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#23

Post by gruez » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #22

I saw this video yesterday and one thing I wondered was, why isn't the company legally, and thus financially and criminally, held responsible for this disaster? If I as an individual dump a bunch of toxic waste, especially something that kills thousands of animals, then I would be held responsible in a vice grip-like manner. I never understand why if something is done by a company, or individual with large wealth, bu…

>I never understand why if something is done by a company, or individual with large wealth, but at massive scale, they can simply get away with it.

because limited liability. The solution, obviously is to recognize that they have limited liability and not extend them "credit". In this case the "credit" is letting them do environmental damage on the expectation that they'll "pay back" remediation costs. Force them to pay a deposit upfront prior to a mining permit being granted.

see also: "It Pays to Not Pay Your Debts" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-10-14/it-pay...

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#24

Post by bmitc » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #18

throwawaysea wrote: post #16

So are they going to have this person or persons man the pit indefinitely? I see they have some automated measures like the propane cannon but at some point shouldn’t they just put a net on top of the whole pit to keep birds off it?

Or float those plastic balls [1] on it, like they do for some reservoirs to stop evaporation. It'd take a lot of them, but that'd work and could be both cheaper and more permanent. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxPdPpi5W4o

I was wondering the same thing about a net, and those plastic balls are interesting. The manual solution(s) just don't seem that efficient.

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#25

Post by bmitc » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #23

bmitc wrote: post #22

I saw this video yesterday and one thing I wondered was, why isn't the company legally, and thus financially and criminally, held responsible for this disaster? If I as an individual dump a bunch of toxic waste, especially something that kills thousands of animals, then I would be held responsible in a vice grip-like manner. I never understand why if something is done by a company, or individual with large wealth, bu…

>I never understand why if something is done by a company, or individual with large wealth, but at massive scale, they can simply get away with it. because limited liability. The solution, obviously is to recognize that they have limited liability and not extend them "credit". In this case the "credit" is letting them do environmental damage on the expectation that they'll "pay back" remediation costs. Force them to…

That seems to just partly explain the mechanism by which these companies get away with things.

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#26

Post by pvaldes » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

blamazon wrote: post #8

tofof wrote: post #6

It's frustrating that the description of the video and the first few seconds of the video both establish a narrative of "acid cooking birds from the inside out " if they spend a few hours in the water, which makes absolutley zero sense. At no point in the entire video is that claim revisisted or explained.

Migrating birds stopping to rest in water tend to drink the water. Once inside the body, if the water is too acidic, it begins breaking down cell walls and denaturing proteins. These actions are analogous to cooking.

If you put acid in a gut you have just more acid. Why we don't "cook from inside" each day then?

This birds live and nest in the tundra; not a place short of acid soils and acid water. Again, why they don't dissolve resting all day in permafrost mud?

So maybe they should consider a different explanation? Lack of food in tired migrant birds?, because nothing grows in that waters... plus poisons in water. Lead maybe?. Keep shooting.

Birds remaining too much time in the water could be solved providing a few artificial islands in the center. Even building a second pond with healthy water a few thousand meters away would be more simple and even cheaper that shooting at birds all the time for years (after all they have a lot of digging machines available yet). Smaller pool with food or big pool without any food? Does not seem like a difficult choice. Give them protection and food and will say goodbye in a heartbeat.

More simple but less funny, of course. Apart of that, the number of man-hours spent on this looks like a total waste.

And putting chalk in the water would fix it and should be doable, because you just need to reach safe tundra levels, that are very acidic yet. Chalk is relatively cheap. Why is that "too expensive" for the company?. Better kill the animals instead to do something really useful?.

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#27

Post by ceejayoz » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #26

blamazon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Migrating birds stopping to rest in water tend to drink the water. Once inside the body, if the water is too acidic, it begins breaking down cell walls and denaturing proteins. These actions are analogous to cooking.

If you put acid in a gut you have just more acid. Why we don't "cook from inside" each day then? This birds live and nest in the tundra; not a place short of acid soils and acid water. Again, why they don't dissolve resting all day in permafrost mud? So maybe they should consider a different explanation? Lack of food in tired migrant birds?, because nothing grows in that waters... plus poisons in water. Lead maybe?.…

> If you put acid in a gut you have just more acid. Why we don't "cook from inside" each day then?

If you reflux a lot, it'll scar your mouth and esophagus. That the stomach is built to handle acid doesn't mean the tubes leading to it necessarily are.

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#28

Post by pvaldes » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #27

pvaldes wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you put acid in a gut you have just more acid. Why we don't "cook from inside" each day then? This birds live and nest in the tundra; not a place short of acid soils and acid water. Again, why they don't dissolve resting all day in permafrost mud? So maybe they should consider a different explanation? Lack of food in tired migrant birds?, because nothing grows in that waters... plus poisons in water. Lead maybe?.…

> If you put acid in a gut you have just more acid. Why we don't "cook from inside" each day then? If you reflux a lot, it'll scar your mouth and esophagus. That the stomach is built to handle acid doesn't mean the tubes leading to it necessarily are.

Good point. A problem that is mitigated if you are herbivorous, and chomp all day a lot of grass and other things that contain calcium, like goose do. Aquatic birds can deal or at least understand the concept of extreme conditions in water. You will not see a flamingo dissolving, and they live in extreme alkaline waters. They know were is time to go.

In any case there are several solutions that would put an end to the problem or alleviate a lot it at least. Is a question of money, but also of will.

If there are a lot of birds dying in your pool, maybe you should admit that the water is not only acidic but also poisonous and that they are desperate for the lack of suitable habitats. Solution, just build a second damned pool close and keep it clean and full of shrubs, reeds and plants. As long as birds can choose to stand or fly and feel safe, they would favor the correct pond.

Or even better, fix your water in the main pond.

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#29

Post by Justin_K » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #26

blamazon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Migrating birds stopping to rest in water tend to drink the water. Once inside the body, if the water is too acidic, it begins breaking down cell walls and denaturing proteins. These actions are analogous to cooking.

If you put acid in a gut you have just more acid. Why we don't "cook from inside" each day then? This birds live and nest in the tundra; not a place short of acid soils and acid water. Again, why they don't dissolve resting all day in permafrost mud? So maybe they should consider a different explanation? Lack of food in tired migrant birds?, because nothing grows in that waters... plus poisons in water. Lead maybe?.…

Lol before making your rant, you should know they don't shoot the animals, the shoot near them to scare them away.

Re: A man who shoots at birds to keep them off a toxic pit [video]

#30

Post by reddog » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #22

I saw this video yesterday and one thing I wondered was, why isn't the company legally, and thus financially and criminally, held responsible for this disaster? If I as an individual dump a bunch of toxic waste, especially something that kills thousands of animals, then I would be held responsible in a vice grip-like manner. I never understand why if something is done by a company, or individual with large wealth, bu…

Because the company in the video -- Atlantic Richfield Company, aka ARCO -- acquired the pit in 1977 only to shut it down in 1982 after discovering what a white elephant it was. The company that actually dug the thousands of miles of tunnels and later the pit was Anaconda Copper (one of the most rapacious, amoral corporations to ever exist) which went belly up in 1983. Anaconda Copper made fortunes for the usual suspects like the Rockefellers and Rothschilds throughout the 20th century. Good luck clawing any restoration money back from them after its been laundered through generations.

If you ever find yourself driving though Butte I highly recommend a stop to see the Berkely pit, the access towers, the enviromental devestation and the excellent mining museum. Its facinating.