2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed • Hacker News Board

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#161

Post by csa » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

unclebucknasty wrote: post #150

csa wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it incorrect to believe the car brakes at full braking force? For me, that is incorrect. I would not consider it dangerous at all. For me, it was more like lifting off the accelerator for a split second if I were in full control. One time that my car did brake aggressively was when an 18-wheeler was gradually easing into my lane (not on Vegas drive). It was probably a slight over-reaction, but probably one that…

One of the themes I'm noticing in these subthreads is that some people have a really high tolerance for errors, while others shudder at the thought of a vehicle doing anything it's not supposed to. I'm in the latter camp. The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error at any time is downright frightening to me. Blows my mind to see someone so casual about it, simply because they've yet to have a mor…

> The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error

I don’t recall ever saying anything like this happened.

My discussion about phantom braking is when autopilot is on. There is no input from me unless I have to or choose to take over.

If you don’t want any of the automatic features (autopilot, lane assist, FSD, etc.), they are all trivially easy to turn off or not use.

Seriously, just go drive one. The way you talk about a Tesla, as though it will just yoink control at any moment from someone who wants full control, is about as far as you can get from the reality.

The idea of “tolerating” undesired behavior in a driver assist process in a car seems… pretty normal? That’s why settings exist — you don’t have to tolerate anything that passes your own tolerance threshold.

I don’t know how many folks you know in real life who actually drive teslas, but the narrative that you describe and the narrative that the people I know who own and drive teslas are about as far apart as it can get. [1]

[1] There is a caveat that folks who bought new models right after they were released had a lot of build issues. That’s pretty unforgivable from the Tesla side, imho. That said, it’s a known issue. Let other people guinea pig the new models. Tesla eventually gets it very right.

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#162

Post by d13 » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 9:35 AM UTC

zzleeper wrote: post #114

blamazon wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model X ownership is a breeze far from the Bay Area. My mom’s model X has gone in at least a dozen times and there’s never a wait for an appointment. The local service center is excellent.

> A dozen times That's what's so weird to me. I own an old 2012 Hyundai Accent, bought used at ~12k, and over the last five years I've only taken it for: - Checkup and oil change - Wheel change - Battery change But then I see all these examples of Tesla owners having to fix issue after issue after issue and saying "it's not so bad I just lost an afternoon each time going for an apt"

Yup, my 2006 Mini One with 129,000 miles has been the same. Oil, wheels, battery - that’s been all in its entire lifetime.

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#163

Post by 9935c101ab17a66 » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 11:39 AM UTC

dham wrote: post #146

Syonyk wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're admitting that computer-based self driving cars won't be a thing? Clever, but probably not what you think you're arguing for... Silicon Valley has a regular, predictable, very tedious pair of arrogances when it comes to things like this. 1. "We are as gods in the synthetic world of the internet, because we know Code. Therefore we must be like gods in the external, physical world!" It's perpetually on displ…

A few different things. IMO we don't really need full self driving, at least not in the next 10 - 15 years. The anxiety that it induces in city streets, pulling out at intersections, etc isn't even worth it. With Tesla your hand is already on the wheel, you're hovering the brake, just drive the car. It's really dumb when you think about it. All we really need is better adaptive cruise control which is what Autopilot…

You: 'vision is the only future for self-driving.' Also you: 'No one actually needs self-driving anyway! it's too goddamn complicated!'

Uhhhhhhhhhh

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#164

Post by unclebucknasty » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

csa wrote: post #161

unclebucknasty wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the themes I'm noticing in these subthreads is that some people have a really high tolerance for errors, while others shudder at the thought of a vehicle doing anything it's not supposed to. I'm in the latter camp. The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error at any time is downright frightening to me. Blows my mind to see someone so casual about it, simply because they've yet to have a mor…

> The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error I don’t recall ever saying anything like this happened. My discussion about phantom braking is when autopilot is on. There is no input from me unless I have to or choose to take over. If you don’t want any of the automatic features (autopilot, lane assist, FSD, etc.), they are all trivially easy to turn off or not use. Seriously, just go drive one. Th…

>My discussion about phantom braking is when autopilot is on...trivially easy to turn off

Seems odd to have to disable features based, not on one's preferences, but on one's tolerance for errors, especially given that--even without full autopilot enabled--some of those features would be considered active safety features.

"This feature can help keep you safe, but it also might make mistakes, so tap here if you don't want to roll the dice".

In any case, my main point was around the fact that people have such a wide tolerance for errors. I think it's interesting and I was suggesting that it's something more intrinsic to the individual, which I believe is one reason people's opinions on Tesla seem to be "polarized". You'll probably never see those errors as a big deal. I'll probably never see them as not a big deal.

>I don’t know how many folks you know in real life who actually drive teslas, but the narrative that you describe...

I know a few. I don't really talk about their cars with them. And, in any case, it seems like their experiences would vary based on which models/years/updates they've experienced, which features they use and, of course, their tolerance for errors and other problems.

In general, I never really considered that I have a Tesla "narrative". If I owned one I might care enough to have one. My only concern is that the company is too cavalier about safety issues, to include the name "Autopilot" itself, which seems to want the cachet of what the term implies without the responsibility that comes with people trusting it.

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#165

Post by carlivar » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

Hypx_ wrote: post #160

carlivar wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Musk actively avoids the Toyota Production System which seems insane and offends me as an engineer. So I don't think quality will improve until he changes his stubborn tune.

I think the Detroit automakers have the same mentality. It's almost like there's this racism belief that the Japanese could never have figured something out that Westerners haven't.

That's not true at all. Here's an article about the reality:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125229...

Incidentally, it really bothers me that you play the racism card so easily and casually without evidence. Please stop doing that.

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#166

Post by carlivar » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

jeron wrote: post #158

carlivar wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Musk actively avoids the Toyota Production System which seems insane and offends me as an engineer. So I don't think quality will improve until he changes his stubborn tune.

I mean this is the same guy who camped out at the factory for like 3 weeks to iron out all the production issues with model 3 and scale production up to meet demand, and it more or less worked. Perhaps you don't need the Toyota production system after all

This is exactly why you need it. TPS empowers every line worker, not some central hero. You are describing hero culture, which in my opinion is toxic.

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#167

Post by nouveaux » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

worik wrote: post #95

zarkov99 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a model S P85+ that is now 8+ years old. Its the best car I have ever had, bar none, and I have had nice cars before. Its still smooth, powerful, comfortable, silent, safe and I still love to drive it. I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up, sorted the issue in the most convenient way possible, sometimes working my driveway, sometimes by driving a loaner to my office…

" I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up" Is that not the point? The best car you have had, with issues. I have a Honda Fit. It is getting on to fifteen years old now. No issues ever except for wear. But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you

"But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you "

Can you clarify why disrupting the process is hubris? There has been many historical examples of outsiders coming in and improving old processes in many fields. Why is it hubris to disrupt the car manufacturing processes?

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#168

Post by nouveaux » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

obnauticus wrote: post #34

ushakov wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i know someone who has a fully-charged model 3 they had spent extra 20k euros to improve it for instance: they added custom roof sealing, because it was getting too loud inside when driving on the highways and then they (tastefully) refitted it with custom-made carbon elements on the inside and the outside tuned/improved Teslas are not that uncommon if you know some owners

For something priced as high as the TM3, TMY or TMX, I find it hilarious that someone would spend even more money just to bring it to parity with other the automotive "luxuries" such as sound deadening. Mind you, most of these luxuries are have been provided by other economy cars at Just as an observation I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price…

You assume incorrectly that people paying for Teslas are buying luxuries "such as sound deadening". They are buying an EV, 0-60 performance, touch screen operations, over the air updates, etc.

"I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price point."

I'm not sure why you would turn your nose up at people who have different preferences. I guarantee you that there are Tesla buyers who also own other expensive cars at similar price ranges.

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#169

Post by nouveaux » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

boppo1 wrote: post #97

martythemaniak wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a Model3 for three and a half years now (very early VIN). It's been our primary and for much of the time, only car. It's been fantastic, and I've recommended it to everyone, and three people I know have purchased 3s/Ys as well and have also been super satisfied. Is it flawless? No - upon delivery the read badge was missing and the glove box had a gap. Went to get it fixed. Year after that the front arms need…

Your experience of multiple things failing in just a few years is not what the average person would call "fantastic".

At least the average Tesla owner disagrees with you.

"With historic reliability concerns but an intensely loyal following, Tesla took the top spot for overall owner satisfaction among the 27 brands mentioned in survey responses."[0]

[0]https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...

Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

#170

Post by obnauticus » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

nouveaux wrote: post #168

obnauticus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For something priced as high as the TM3, TMY or TMX, I find it hilarious that someone would spend even more money just to bring it to parity with other the automotive "luxuries" such as sound deadening. Mind you, most of these luxuries are have been provided by other economy cars at Just as an observation I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price…

You assume incorrectly that people paying for Teslas are buying luxuries "such as sound deadening". They are buying an EV, 0-60 performance, touch screen operations, over the air updates, etc. "I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price point." I'm not sure why you would turn your nose up at people who have different preferences. I guarantee you t…

We’ll see how the new EVs entering the market change things. Most of the Tesla owners that I know purchased it as their first car.

I will agree the powertrain and tech (not the god awful screen) are the best in the market at the moment. Maybe it’s just me, but a vehicle needs to cover the basics before anything fancy such as the acceleration will sell it.