Dick Smith (Entrepreneur) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dick Smith (Entrepreneur)

#111

Post by karmanyaahm » Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #91

karmanyaahm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretical question, but do the 0.01% have any obligation towards the 99.99% just because they happen to be born somewhere. Practically, yes, I know society expects people to be nationalist to some degree.

Yes probably some moral obligation to those countries if they enabled them to be born and survive and become skilled or wealthy enough to be in a position to migrate to western countries on that basis, yes I do think there is an argument that they have some non-zero obligation. But wealthy countries are not doing this for the benefit of those people, they are doing it for their own benefit. To the detriment of the re…

> if they enabled them to be born and survive and become skilled or wealthy enough to be in a position to migrate to western countries on that basis, yes I do think there is an argument that they have some non-zero obligation.

That's a fair point, but I guess the question then becomes - is that non-zero obligation greater than the emigrant's personal quest for a better life. Which, in the real world for most people, seems to be no.

> Let's not lie to ourselves about this being some kind of altruism or net positive outcome

Probably the best outcome for collective human knowledge would be to develop every country, research in every single country = more total research / unit time. But for individuals who just want to be able to invent something in their lifetimes and have a better daily life, this is very far away and humans are bad at long-term decision-making.

> Also do you think the 0.01% of people in a western country have any obligation towards the 99.99% of people in that country?

I don't think so. That's actually similar to the premise behind Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged [1]. But, I am very happy that we share the same world and I the same country (US) with some of the best people in pretty much every field.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

Re: Dick Smith (Entrepreneur)

#112

Post by rsj_hn » Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #91

karmanyaahm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretical question, but do the 0.01% have any obligation towards the 99.99% just because they happen to be born somewhere. Practically, yes, I know society expects people to be nationalist to some degree.

Yes probably some moral obligation to those countries if they enabled them to be born and survive and become skilled or wealthy enough to be in a position to migrate to western countries on that basis, yes I do think there is an argument that they have some non-zero obligation. But wealthy countries are not doing this for the benefit of those people, they are doing it for their own benefit. To the detriment of the re…

> Also do you think the 0.01% of people in a western country have any obligation towards the 99.99% of people in that country?

In a patriotic, nationalist culture, yes. But if you explicitly reject things like patriotism and nationalism as being chauvinist or racist, then of course there is no obligation to privilege your countrymen over anyone else. So you have the same bonds to everyone, which is just another way of saying you have no special bonds to anyone.

Now in real life, we always have bonds to some group and that group is usually your own family first and your own tribe second, and it radiates out. So if you preach class consciousness, then you would have loyalty to members of your own class, etc. So then here, too, you can't expect the very top to have any loyalty to you.

It's really strange how people advocate for certain value systems without even taking a moment to think about the logical consequences of their values, let alone devoting serious consideration as to whether a given value system promotes long term human flourishing. This is also why most of these values have terrible consequences for human flourishing whenever they are adopted on a large scale.

Re: Dick Smith (Entrepreneur)

#113

Post by dunco » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 3:45 AM UTC

dools wrote: post #109

dunco wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

land mass =/= habitable land mass. Help me understand your view because I simply cannot fathom how you must think to want 500M people in Australia. Have you traveled? Do you want to live the way people live in overcrowded countries? Do you think there will be some trickle down economic effect for you? Do you place any value on the environment?

I don't see how Aussies expect to live on the least densely populated continent right next to the most densely populated continent much longer. The only question is on whose terms we reclaim arable land and begin the process of populating currently unpopulated regions. I reckon the average population density of Japan is a pretty good target, and that's what I'm basing the 500m figure on. My point is that people assum…

Japan is a net importer of food and probably could not feed its population if it had to. We can't all be net importers of food. Australia's problem is water. Our rivers are already environmental disasters because agriculture belligerently takes too much water.

The earth is finite. And it becomes undesirable and polluted long before we hit a hard population ceiling. I just do not understand people who would happily see the entire earth destroyed just so we can have a few more billion humans. we have too many already.

almost all high density places in the world are shitholes. Japan is an exception, but I don't have faith that Australia could be. Sydney is already seeing net loss of residents (excluding new migrants) because it is becoming overcrowded.

Re: Dick Smith (Entrepreneur)

#114

Post by dools » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 4:16 AM UTC

pabs3 wrote: post #85

jlawer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can colonize the centre of Australia. There just isn't a reason to do so. You can see wherever they find a patch of minerals, a mining town springs up. Decades ago, there were towns all along the train lines to support the rail services, but as trains got more reliable they were no longer required. There are few advantages to being in the centre of Australia. Many of the people who live there do so because they ha…

If Australia can figure out how to export the energy, the centre might be a great place to build giant solar farms.

Hydrogen!

Re: Dick Smith (Entrepreneur)

#115

Post by seoulmetro » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

skissane wrote: post #75

seoulmetro wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being anti-immigration isn't the same as being anti-[race]. That's a weird thing to tie together.

I never said being anti-immigration is always about being anti-[race]. But, to quote Pauline Hanson's 1996 maiden speech to Parliament [0] (my emphasis): > Immigration and multiculturalism are issues that this government is trying to address, but for far too long ordinary Australians have been kept out of any debate by the major parties. I and most Australians want our immigration policy radically reviewed and that o…

It's a shame you'll always be wrong. Flagging those that prove that you're wrong and display why will be your downfall. I guess you're too weak to discuss why you're wrong.