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Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

keymacs.com

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Re: Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

#61

Post by chevill »

minimilian wrote: post #5

Wow; finally a keyboard with enough modifiers and no false assumptions about their names. Does this use the same kind of switch as the Space Cadet? How does it compare to the buckling springs of the IBM Model F? Can one flash QMK onto it, or another free firmware that allows one to do all configurations in plain text (for those of us who hate graphical interfaces)? While I like the layout and the keys and the legends…

This uses Alps keyswitches which many people think are the best ever, me included.

I think some of the space cadet keyboards used hall effect switches which were supposed to be pretty good too.

This board is modelled after a non-space cadet keyboard which I don't think used either hall effect or Alps.

Re: Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

#62

Post by chevill »

Findecanor wrote: post #7
coldblues wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It uses Alps switches. They are considered to be the best of the best. https://keymacs.com/keymap.html can be used to reprogram the keyboard.

Restored genuine vintage Alps or Matias Click. Whether the Alps are "best of the best" is a matter of personal preference. Matias' switches are modern clones of the vintage Alps switches. They have a poor reputation for reliability though, sadly.

The creator sells boards with either matias or vintage alps. There's a limited supply of the vintage ones though. You can also buy a kit and provide your own switches of IIRC when I emailed him he said you can also send him the switches if you wanted a variant of the Alps that he doesn't have.

I've tried modern and vintage and even modern ones modded to feel like vintage in various boards and the real vintage ones are far superior.

Re: Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

#63

Post by chevill »

Findecanor wrote: post #10
tyingq wrote: post #3

€965 if you solder it yourself, not including the Teensy MCU or cable.

I think that the worst thing is that the Teensy 2.0 microcontroller board is scheduled to be discontinued during next year.

Usually when stuff like that happens the community is quick to fill in the gaps by making software compatible with other controllers. The market for this one is so small though that it might take a while.

Perhaps the company will come up with a resolution though.

Re: Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

#64

Post by duped »

chevill wrote: post #60
duped wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bulk of it is the custom keycaps (a keycap run is seriously expensive, especially if you're using weird key sizes), the enclosure, and the switches. They're probably being hosed by their suppliers too, since I can't imagine they have the money to invest in serious volume. That said the board looks seriously under-engineered. It's a bit ridiculous to invest so much in high quality switches and an enclosure built l…

>They're probably being hosed by their suppliers too, since I can't imagine they have the money to invest in serious volume. There are no suppliers IIRC. He spends like 2 weeks making a set of keycaps by hand and that's why its so expensive. He also manufactures the cases himself.

If that's what he's doing it sounds awfully cheap!

Re: Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

#65

Post by xondono »

alpaca128 wrote: post #43
xondono wrote: post #30

I see a lot of red flags here. They claim it’s “over-engineered”, but it looks like the opposite. The cheaping out: 1) 2 layer board with two modules (one of them a DIY arduino board). Given the price tag they could have spent $2 in going 4 layers and add some ground planes. 2) Charging extra for N-key rollover? Seriously? Who though that would look good? 3) No cable? The overspending: 1) Fully machined two part case…

> Why would I care to add a brushed look to an internal part? The custom keyboard community includes people who indeed care about such details. Also it's not unusual to get no cable with such kits; Custom cables are popular too. I'm not sure how this compares to known brands in that price range as I'm not exactly an expert in case manufacturing, but I've seen designs that I find more appealing.

> The custom keyboard community

I like to consider myself part of that community. I don’t have the cash to spend into a collection of keyboards, but mine still cost me around $300, which I think is fair given the customizations.

This is the fist time I see a brushed support plate.

Re: Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

#66

Post by xondono »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #54
xondono wrote: post #30

I see a lot of red flags here. They claim it’s “over-engineered”, but it looks like the opposite. The cheaping out: 1) 2 layer board with two modules (one of them a DIY arduino board). Given the price tag they could have spent $2 in going 4 layers and add some ground planes. 2) Charging extra for N-key rollover? Seriously? Who though that would look good? 3) No cable? The overspending: 1) Fully machined two part case…

A ground plane would be pointless. The only high speed portion would be the USB data lines and they're on the controller board.

Ground planes are not only for high speed, the EMI performance of going 4-layers is easily one of the cheapest gains to be made in modern electronics. The other gain in this scenario is that you could tighten up the rebound times, which reduces input latency.

Can you pull it of with two layers? Yes, of course, but if you are charging $1000 for the thing I expect you to go 4 layers.

Re: Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

#67

Post by xondono »

duped wrote: post #41
xondono wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not that sure. Nowadays you can get runs on the cheap, that’s why group buys are even possible in the DIY community. The fully machined aluminum case probably plays a part in there too.

The fact you need group buys at all is evidence to how expensive it is. There really aren't that many places you can go for quality either.

I think you and I have different bars for what “expensive” means.

Manufacturing things is expensive because of the fixed costs. To make it cheaper you need to make enough sets to dilute the fixed cost among N buyers. If at N=20 the price is already something people will pay, that’s not expensive IMO.

The problem is that the case doesn’t work that way, because the costs of machined aluminium are pretty much linear with N.

Re: Keymacs: Modern Symbolics-Style Keyboard

#68

Post by guenthert »

rbanffy wrote: post #48
guenthert wrote: post #35

Uh, Unicomp offers Symbolics-Style key caps for their (mini) Model-M. Not quite the same, but saves you some $800 or so.

Do they? I saw they have an APL version, but I don't think there is anything like a Symbolics (such as the "Squid Game" keys)

No, not those exquisite keys, unfortunately just the more mundane super, hyper, meta modifier keys from the space cadet keyboard: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/HSM.
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