I’ve had multiple high end cars, including a BMW 750 Li and a Porsche 911. My 21 Model Y is hands down my favorite and significantly more reliable.
2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
141–150 of 183 posts
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#142While it's pretty obvious that many manufacturers are coming out with their own EVs, there seems to be something of a bubble that isn't paying attention or totally ignores this. It will be interesting to see how the EV space evolves once there are mass amounts of competitor vehicles available/on the road. Specifically interesting to see how it affects valuations for these companies. I suspect Tesla's growth rate will…
I'm curious as well, though I am slightly more bullish on Tesla. I chose one after being a lifelong BMW owner and having no interest in an electric, it was after seeing how little car I could get for 50k that had me go check out a friend's Model 3, and being very impressed. Cost of ownership is considerably less than comparable cars so far, and I've had a couple minor issues, similar to some BMWs I've had. I agree ov…
I don't want to diminish Tesla's achievements.
They are well ahead in many respects, and clearly have the edge for now. But it's inevitable that the market will be flooded with roughly equivalent EVs in the next few years.
Ford was dominant in ICE for awhile too. Being a leader affords you additional margin and runway, but very hard to believe it will be lasting.
Look at the Rivian and F-150 for comparable cars. I believe the range may be slightly less, but keep in mind, Tesla still buys most of its batteries from Panasonic. They aren't super proprietary tech that's fully manufacture in-house, though I'm sure they had a hand in the design etc.
Lucid has more range than a Tesla I believe, though is more expensive. EV is in some ways easier than ICE, due to fewer moving parts. But certainly a totally different skill/tech. There are many more new EV startups than there were for ICE at least.
I do agree that self driving can be a strong differentiator if it improves more. In some ways improving it's capabilities makes it more dangerous until it passes the "no need to pay attention" threshold. E.g. the better it is the less humans will pay attention, so there needs to be close to zero critical faults for people to safely rely on it.
From the examples I've seen, the self driving seems very far off from this level when city driving. But not speaking from personal experience. And highway seems like a mostly easy and contained problem, that is unlikely to be a differentiator for long. Most new cars have auto-follow and lanekeeping already which gives you 90% of the benefit in the highway context.
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a model S P85+ that is now 8+ years old. Its the best car I have ever had, bar none, and I have had nice cars before. Its still smooth, powerful, comfortable, silent, safe and I still love to drive it. I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up, sorted the issue in the most convenient way possible, sometimes working my driveway, sometimes by driving a loaner to my office…
" I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up" Is that not the point? The best car you have had, with issues. I have a Honda Fit. It is getting on to fifteen years old now. No issues ever except for wear. But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you
I have had issues in every car I have ever had, including luxury German and Japanese brands. Over an 8 year period, on a car that broke so much new technical ground and with a level of support that is so absolutely fantastic, I consider the issues I had to be not significant, detracting very little from my overall extraordinary experience.
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a model S P85+ that is now 8+ years old. Its the best car I have ever had, bar none, and I have had nice cars before. Its still smooth, powerful, comfortable, silent, safe and I still love to drive it. I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up, sorted the issue in the most convenient way possible, sometimes working my driveway, sometimes by driving a loaner to my office…
" I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up" Is that not the point? The best car you have had, with issues. I have a Honda Fit. It is getting on to fifteen years old now. No issues ever except for wear. But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you
> But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you
Tesla did disrupt the entire process and where they are now is 5 years ahead of every single major manufacturer in EVs, including Honda. Honda, Toyota, VW, GM are in for an ocean of pain as we transition to EVs and China floods the market with cheap, quality offerings. Their complacency is exactly the wrong kind of hubris and they will be luck to end the decade as major manufacturers.
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Autopilot works great. I don't think anyone claims otherwise on the older models. The problem is twofold: 1. They promised "Full Self Driving" and delivered ordinary driver assistance. 2. The vision-based approach just plain does not work.
> The vision-based approach just plain does not work. No. Vision is the one and only future for self driving. Source: Been closely following this scene for years and own a Comma 2 (Open Pilot).
So, you're admitting that computer-based self driving cars won't be a thing?
Clever, but probably not what you think you're arguing for...
Silicon Valley has a regular, predictable, very tedious pair of arrogances when it comes to things like this.
1. "We are as gods in the synthetic world of the internet, because we know Code. Therefore we must be like gods in the external, physical world!" It's perpetually on display, and Tesla is an amazing case study here. After deriding those dinosaur, idiot, legacy automakers for their horridly slow, glacial, obsolete factories that mixed humans with robots on the assembly line, instead of being purely robot based and running at sonic velocities... the Model 3 and such are produced on something that's virtually indistinguishable from those "dinosaur" lines. GM, Honda, Toyota... they've all been trying for the "lights out dreadnaught" car factory since the 80s, and have all concluded that it simply doesn't work. It's cheaper, faster, and more reliable to have humans in the loop, and run the line at their pace, than to solve the problems that increasingly look like "full general purpose AI."
2. "A human visual system is just a couple shitty cameras and a neural network. How hard can it be?" The answer is, "Exceedingly hard." The human visual system works at a far better angular resolution in the core than Tesla's system does (the Tesla "narrow" camera has a 4x worse angular resolution than the human eye core, and the human eye is really good at scanning that high resolution core and merging details), and the neural network behind it is an awful lot more complex than anything our computers can emulate. My three year old makes fun of the "green moons" and "red moons" in the sky after showing him the video of a Tesla confusing a low moon for a yellow light, because he can tell the difference between the moon and a traffic light. And I guarantee his visual processing system is capable of an awful lot more than a Tesla, in practical real world situations. I don't trust him to drive anything faster than his Power Wheels, but... well, neither do I trust a Tesla to do that.
A multi-sensor fusion based system has some hope of working with current technology. Vision only? Not a chance.
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The vision-based approach just plain does not work. No. Vision is the one and only future for self driving. Source: Been closely following this scene for years and own a Comma 2 (Open Pilot).
So, you're admitting that computer-based self driving cars won't be a thing? Clever, but probably not what you think you're arguing for... Silicon Valley has a regular, predictable, very tedious pair of arrogances when it comes to things like this. 1. "We are as gods in the synthetic world of the internet, because we know Code. Therefore we must be like gods in the external, physical world!" It's perpetually on displ…
A few different things. IMO we don't really need full self driving, at least not in the next 10 - 15 years. The anxiety that it induces in city streets, pulling out at intersections, etc isn't even worth it. With Tesla your hand is already on the wheel, you're hovering the brake, just drive the car. It's really dumb when you think about it.
All we really need is better adaptive cruise control which is what Autopilot and Open pilot is. IMO it works flawlessly, takes the stress out of driving. It's really a solved problem at this point. I'd say 3/4 of all the miles I've driven on my Rav4 have been on Open Pilot.
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#147Since we're doing the anecdote thing here:
I've had a Model 3 for 2 years now. Best effing car ever (I owned 3 prior to it). Haven't had a single issue that wasn't my fault. Service is super convenient, informative and fast. The lack of clutter, instant and sustained torque in addition to unreal handling, makes every other car, in its class or above (test driven cars twice the price), feel like a toy and pure junk.
So abso-lutely buy a Tesla if you've been on the fence.
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
i know someone who has a fully-charged model 3 they had spent extra 20k euros to improve it for instance: they added custom roof sealing, because it was getting too loud inside when driving on the highways and then they (tastefully) refitted it with custom-made carbon elements on the inside and the outside tuned/improved Teslas are not that uncommon if you know some owners
A friend owns a 2020 model 3. The paint job was worse than my ass end 8 year old Citroen C3 so he spent the entire value of my ass end 8 year old Citroen C3 on a ceramic coating for it. And it still looks worse. I’d be so pissed if I’d spent on a Tesla and got that back for my money.
Sandy Munro asked Musk about the terrible paint in his interview. Apparently they fixed their paint process in Dec. 2020. Until then people had to get paint protection film, ceramic coatings and mud flaps to keep the paint looking decent.
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
So, you're admitting that computer-based self driving cars won't be a thing? Clever, but probably not what you think you're arguing for... Silicon Valley has a regular, predictable, very tedious pair of arrogances when it comes to things like this. 1. "We are as gods in the synthetic world of the internet, because we know Code. Therefore we must be like gods in the external, physical world!" It's perpetually on displ…
A few different things. IMO we don't really need full self driving, at least not in the next 10 - 15 years. The anxiety that it induces in city streets, pulling out at intersections, etc isn't even worth it. With Tesla your hand is already on the wheel, you're hovering the brake, just drive the car. It's really dumb when you think about it. All we really need is better adaptive cruise control which is what Autopilot…
[deleted]
Re: 2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe I am old-school but 5 times in a 9 hour drive seems unacceptably high for a potentially dangerous event. Is it incorrect to believe the car brakes at full braking force? Is there some predictor of the car making this error that makes it easier to handle?
> Is it incorrect to believe the car brakes at full braking force? For me, that is incorrect. I would not consider it dangerous at all. For me, it was more like lifting off the accelerator for a split second if I were in full control. One time that my car did brake aggressively was when an 18-wheeler was gradually easing into my lane (not on Vegas drive). It was probably a slight over-reaction, but probably one that…
One of the themes I'm noticing in these subthreads is that some people have a really high tolerance for errors, while others shudder at the thought of a vehicle doing anything it's not supposed to.
I'm in the latter camp. The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error at any time is downright frightening to me. Blows my mind to see someone so casual about it, simply because they've yet to have a more extreme incident, especially given that others have.
I think where people come down on this is owed to something fundamental in their nature/wiring.