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The melancholy decline of the semicolon

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Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#191

Post by cryptonector »

mac-chaffee wrote: post #128

I use them a lot to control the tone of what I write. Since periods can indicate a serious or angry tone[1], I often need some other way to indicate a separation between two complete sentences. For example: "It looks like you forgot to do X; that's needed to do Y." Using a period could be perceived as anger, but using a comma would make that sentence a comma splice. [1] https://youtu.be/fS4X1JfX6_Q?t=3m3s

At some point I was taught that in English (not my first language) short sentences are the norm. Now you tell me that short sentences convey a harsh tone. What is one to do?!

I use semi-colons as a sort of conjunction, not unlike the example you gave, in part to give me a way to lengthen sentences that would otherwise seem much too short.

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#192

Post by tpoacher »

My favourite use of the semicolon is in its function as a "supercomma". It just makes sense.

E.g.

"We were joined by three families: John, his wife, Mary, and their son, George; the Middletons; and our neighbours, Jim and Sally from next door."

Alas, whenever I use it, invariably someone who's never seen it used this way will simply have a tantrum until I completely rewrite the whole thing in the most tedious way possible; it's almost not worth using it, for this reason alone.

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#193

Post by minimilian »

bopbeepboop wrote: post #131
minimilian wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you mean `full-stop' in your 2nd paragraph, or are you ascribing a double role to the colon and ignoring the full-stop? According to Fowler (The King's English), there was a time when the difference between , ; : . was merely quantitative (which explains the name `semicolon').

I’m not sure that time is passed. I was in college only ten years ago, and my English professor’s key insight to punctuation is that it’s to define framing and tempo for your sentences. That the sequence you listed is the pause count — similar to different empty spaces in music. Punctuation is just the negative space to frame your thoughts! And perhaps a bit of tonality.

That's nice to hear: but do you often see the colon used that way?

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#194

Post by emmelaich »

cryptonector wrote: post #191
mac-chaffee wrote: post #128

I use them a lot to control the tone of what I write. Since periods can indicate a serious or angry tone[1], I often need some other way to indicate a separation between two complete sentences. For example: "It looks like you forgot to do X; that's needed to do Y." Using a period could be perceived as anger, but using a comma would make that sentence a comma splice. [1] https://youtu.be/fS4X1JfX6_Q?t=3m3s

At some point I was taught that in English (not my first language) short sentences are the norm. Now you tell me that short sentences convey a harsh tone. What is one to do?! I use semi-colons as a sort of conjunction, not unlike the example you gave, in part to give me a way to lengthen sentences that would otherwise seem much too short.

The trouble is you get advice in a context, and that context might not be known.

The context for your advice is that writing long sentences is/was popular poor style. Especially for young and new readers of English.

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#195

Post by Zak »

cryptonector wrote: post #191
mac-chaffee wrote: post #128

I use them a lot to control the tone of what I write. Since periods can indicate a serious or angry tone[1], I often need some other way to indicate a separation between two complete sentences. For example: "It looks like you forgot to do X; that's needed to do Y." Using a period could be perceived as anger, but using a comma would make that sentence a comma splice. [1] https://youtu.be/fS4X1JfX6_Q?t=3m3s

At some point I was taught that in English (not my first language) short sentences are the norm. Now you tell me that short sentences convey a harsh tone. What is one to do?! I use semi-colons as a sort of conjunction, not unlike the example you gave, in part to give me a way to lengthen sentences that would otherwise seem much too short.

There's a common, but far from universal perception that ending a single-sentence text message with a period conveys an angry or serious tone. That may extend to multiple short sentences in some contexts; I'm uncertain.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/05/909969004/before-texting-your...

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#196

Post by gpm »

comeonseriously wrote: post #143
soledades wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No find and replace, either? ;)

I use those. But how would those be automated exactly? How would they know what I want to find and replace?

By understanding the language, so it can do magic things like "rename this field (including uses of it)" without changing other uses of the same string. As a separate operation from general find and replace, of course.

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#197

Post by emmelaich »

ajkjk wrote: post #187
elb2020 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It looks like you forgot to do X; that's needed to do Y." "It looks like you forgot to do X. That's needed to do Y." I would actually prefer the second one here. It's neutral and to the point. I guess the problem with the first one is that the reader might interpret the semicolon exactly in the way that you intended it, as an attempt on your behalf to "control the tone". Depending on the personal disposition of the…

Oh, weird, I find the second off-putting. It's a bit.. Patronizing? Like you're some superior giving orders.

There's a lesson here; never try to infer too much tone from email messages.

Or chat channels. Unless you really know the person well.

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#198

Post by minimilian »

tpoacher wrote: post #192

My favourite use of the semicolon is in its function as a "supercomma". It just makes sense. E.g. "We were joined by three families: John, his wife, Mary, and their son, George; the Middletons; and our neighbours, Jim and Sally from next door." Alas, whenever I use it, invariably someone who's never seen it used this way will simply have a tantrum until I completely rewrite the whole thing in the most tedious way pos…

> supercomma

duplocomma

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#199

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #154
ghoomketu wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow never really knew this. I guess you need to have deep understanding of the language and maybe have English as your mother tongue to pick up on such things. No wonder text is so emotionless and people misread and get angry about what they think it means all the time. Yet, nobody misreads the tone of your voice or facial expressions. Like in India we have a very common expression "I'm writing to intimate you.." whi…

> "I'm writing to intimate you.." This is a documented Indian English usage: " https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intimate " (see the verb section). Indian English has retained some strong markers from the British colonial period. There's no clear guide for how prestige and emulation will affect usage, but "to intimate" in either verbal form is a literary archaism in North American English.

The "to subtly imply" definition does still exist in American English. I'd suspect most people with university degrees to understand it when used.

It's a bit literary, yes, and would be out of place if used verbally or in a business communication, but it is not archaic.

Re: The melancholy decline of the semicolon

#200

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

tpoacher wrote: post #190
dgellow wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since periods can indicate a serious or angry tone I will forever refuse this idea. I use a period to end my sentences because that’s how a sentence ends, not to communicate a tone.

Fine. Do that then.

This response is perfect.
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