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Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

commonwealmagazine.org

41–50 of 100 posts

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We are not so inclusivist as to tolerate intolerance such as yours." More like "we are inclusivist therefore we cannot tolerate intolerance such as yours".

The people refusing dialog are the one who are most intolerant. That is the intolerance that shouldn't be tolerated.

Racism and fundamentalism are refusals of dialog. That's the point.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#43
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but a push for more diverse authors into the classroom is not the same as what you are presenting here. What you’ve linked is not saying “we must read these authors because their skin is black”. It is saying “their black skin has caused them to live a life different from other authors, which has caused them to write something different from other authors, and we want to know about that.” Based on our back and f…

> What you’ve linked is not saying “we must read these authors because their skin is black”. It is saying “their black skin has caused them to live a life different from other authors, which has caused them to write something different from other authors, and we want to know about that.” Right, and the parents aren't saying "I refuse to let kids read any books by black authors", they are saying "don't put books into…

When school districts are coming up with lists of books by black authors or with civil rights subjects to ban them and cancelling black author appearances, and parents are explaining that they support such measures because they don't want their kid to feel guilty for being white or that it's all Critical Race Theory, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that the only objections being voiced by parent groups is that selecting black authors is a bit arbitrary. (Funnily enough I don't see such massive pushback when teachers set kids the objective of reading a book with a European author, or a book written over 100 years ago...)

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We are not so inclusivist as to tolerate intolerance such as yours." More like "we are inclusivist therefore we cannot tolerate intolerance such as yours".

This confuses cause and effect. Intolerance of intolerance isn't just political theatre. It's a deliberate attempt to avoid the kinds of practical horrors that racism etc create in an otherwise liberal culture. Those horrors includes personal and mob violence, lynchings, rapes, other random murders, institutionalised economic apartheid, privilege (and its close ally, corruption), the reduction of public debate to rea…

[flagged]

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We are not so inclusivist as to tolerate intolerance such as yours." More like "we are inclusivist therefore we cannot tolerate intolerance such as yours".

This confuses cause and effect. Intolerance of intolerance isn't just political theatre. It's a deliberate attempt to avoid the kinds of practical horrors that racism etc create in an otherwise liberal culture. Those horrors includes personal and mob violence, lynchings, rapes, other random murders, institutionalised economic apartheid, privilege (and its close ally, corruption), the reduction of public debate to rea…

This aligns with my thinking as well. The problem with any kind of enforcement is of course that it’s fast lane to authoritarian (albeit perhaps distributed) oppression of dissent legitimate dissent.

But it’s very rare to see discussion on this level. As seen in this thread it usually stops way earlier.

If I’m allowed to branch to a separate topic, I think this is reflected in what I believe is a fundamental issue in larger social networks: moderation. It would solve so many problems (and introduce new ones, which can be solved) if, like email, it was by filters set both by user and server (assuming sufficient federation).

This could breed an economy of curation markets/algorithms. If you want to stick to a particular echo chamber, you could.

Conway’s law on global scale.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We are not so inclusivist as to tolerate intolerance such as yours." More like "we are inclusivist therefore we cannot tolerate intolerance such as yours".

This confuses cause and effect. Intolerance of intolerance isn't just political theatre. It's a deliberate attempt to avoid the kinds of practical horrors that racism etc create in an otherwise liberal culture. Those horrors includes personal and mob violence, lynchings, rapes, other random murders, institutionalised economic apartheid, privilege (and its close ally, corruption), the reduction of public debate to rea…

Obviously, possessing or expressing an idea is not the same as these "practical horrors" you list. This unfortunately too common line of thinking attempts to rationalize violence against people who think differently than you. There's nothing "liberal" about it. It's nakedly totalitarian.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#47
> The point of pragmatism is that a philosophical problem or distinction is only real to the extent that it has consequences—and those consequences are, in fact, the meaning of the problem or distinction. Dissolving those questions, casting doubt on the existence of any such consequences, was a frequent move by James and Dewey and a favorite move of Rorty’s.

It reads like an argument technique and not a tool for illuminating truth about the world. Just in the previous paragraph, he takes all the meaningful value of philosophy off the table and puts it out of scope:

> Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism speaks to and for those who, living in a post-positivist, Wittgensteinian world, would never ask themselves questions like: “Do objects really have the properties they seem to, or are they only appearances? How can we know?” “What is the essence of a human being? Soul? Personality? Genetic code?” “Is mind material or immaterial?” “Are some actions intrinsically right or wrong, regardless of all consequences (or none) to all parties concerned, anywhere in the universe, in saecula saeculorum?” “Can an act be both caused and free?” “Can something be objectively good even if no one anywhere thinks it so?” “Can a proposition be true if no one exists?”

Maybe I'm misreading, and I'm going to go way out on a limb here with my reaction to it. It's just more dialectic materialism, where to even start a conversation with someone using it, you have to accept ontological premises that are necessarily absurd. To another commenter here, it does indeed sound like Poppers paraphrase, which is a thought terminating cliche that protects lazy minds from dissonance. When inclusion of authors and texts from unexpected* places was transgressive it added perspective, but now, it's just designed to homogenize and liquify culture to produce nihilistic ideologues who can't be trusted as fellow citizens to share a recourse to truth.

Personally, I think secular philosophers were tricked into giving up the one tool or razor that would have kept them from drowning in the hall of mirrors flooded with bullshit that their field has become, and that is the question, "is this philosophy, ideology, or critical theory designed to deceive and subordinate us to others, and if so, who, how, and to what end?"

The beauty of it is you can apply it to religion easily, even though the result is pretty clumsy, but it gets interesting when someone like this Rorty takes all the meaningful questions off the table first, as you should feel the hairs on your neck stand up, because you are being rounded on by an intellectual predator.

If you just take a cryptanalyst or a hackers mindset to it and ask, "am I being deceived?" the whole secular dialectic materialist edifice crumbles. I would argue that this question is also necessarily theistic, as it presupposes truth, and a belief in truth is proof of a belief in something divine by which truth can be measured or compared. That is how fragile secular presuppositions are. As in, boom, you just found out you belive in god and that mythical evil is just plain old deception, just what the crazies have been banging on about for millennia. For many that's kind of an oh shit moment, because if that's true, some other things become very urgent.

Nobody articulates this stuff, but it's the underlying schism in the culture, where though we might see barberous religious fundamentalists filling the heads of children with hate, what these people really believe is that there is truth, and they are innoculating kids against being deceived by thinkers who begin by taking truth off the table, since once you've done that, nothing has fixed meaning or consequences, and all that's left is a material power struggle.

While I don't need for anyone to agree with my views, they should at least try to understand that the irreconcilable difference between conservatives and liberals reduces to a fixed belief in truth. It's the only meaningful question, and based on a light reading of the article, this Rorty guy seems like he's just producing more deceptive misdirections.

To me, the ideas in the article sounded like just more NINO: Nihilisim-In-Nihilism-Out.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#48
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you’ve linked is not saying “we must read these authors because their skin is black”. It is saying “their black skin has caused them to live a life different from other authors, which has caused them to write something different from other authors, and we want to know about that.” Right, and the parents aren't saying "I refuse to let kids read any books by black authors", they are saying "don't put books into…

When school districts are coming up with lists of books by black authors or with civil rights subjects to ban them and cancelling black author appearances, and parents are explaining that they support such measures because they don't want their kid to feel guilty for being white or that it's all Critical Race Theory, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that the only objections being voiced by parent groups is that sel…

> When school districts are coming up with lists of books by black authors or with civil rights subjects to ban them and cancelling black author appearances, and parents are explaining that they support such measures because they don't want their kid to feel guilty for being white or that it's all Critical Race Theory

But that is about banning topics, not being upset because your kid came home with a book by a black author. I agree that is bad, but that wasn't what this discussion was about.

> (Funnily enough I don't see such massive pushback when teachers set kids the objective of reading a book with a European author, or a book written over 100 years ago...)

Yeah, some of the pushback will be motivated by racism, but labelling all pushback as racism wont do you any favours.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious to know the basis of your assertions, to try to get a better idea of this situation from your point of view. First, the idea that many have been trained to believe this. What is this training specifically they are receiving? How many teachers/professors/daycare workers are receiving this training and where? By whom? Is the basis of this belief something you read or personal knowledge of teachers and profe…

Interestingly this is the top article on The Atlantic at the moment: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/universiti... It’s an interesting trend where suddenly the universities are not only trying to find the truth, but apparently they have a monopoly on it.

If that’s what we’re talking about, was weird to see Merriam-Webster swiftly adding a definition for “anti-vaxxer” that includes those opposed to vaccine mandates.

So apparently a person who is willingly fully vaccinated, believe vaccines work, and believes that everyone should get vaccinated may still be an “antivaxxer”.

That’s some Ministry of Truth level stuff.

Re: Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism

#50

> The point of pragmatism is that a philosophical problem or distinction is only real to the extent that it has consequences—and those consequences are, in fact, the meaning of the problem or distinction. Dissolving those questions, casting doubt on the existence of any such consequences, was a frequent move by James and Dewey and a favorite move of Rorty’s. It reads like an argument technique and not a tool for illu…

>To another commenter here, it does indeed sound like Poppers paraphrase, which is a thought terminating cliche that protects lazy minds from dissonance. When inclusion of authors and texts from unexpected* places was transgressive it added perspective, but now, it's just designed to homogenize and liquify culture to produce nihilistic ideologues who can't be trusted as fellow citizens to share a recourse to truth.

I have nothing to add, just want to say that you hit the nail on the head and this sentence in particular is enlightening.

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