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Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

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Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#91
From my observation having visited several different/diverse locales these past few years, the diversity isn't as much of an issue...compared to the actual competency of the participants. In Malaysia, the main three races are Malay, Chinese, and Indian. Because they are a Muslim country, official positions in government as well as academic opportunities and positions are limited based on religion, which usually means race as well. How is this relevant? Well, now the economy of the entirety f Malaysia is on par with Singapore, their tiny breakaway neighbor to the south. You see, Singapore has roughly the same demographics as Malaysia - but without racial/religious limitations on individuals pursuing their careers - in the Civil and professional space. The difference between the nations now is profound. I likened it to running a race, both countries participating, yet one nation tying the legs of its two most competent runners together, so that the third runner would be able to keep up - within the realm of his own nation.

Another example I can think of is the race distribution in Latin America, the countries which are more diversified are generally less prosperous, perhaps its the culture in general but the differences between a country such as Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic - infrastructure wise readily observable - are not so nuanced. The inhabitants of these countries acknowledge this as well, even residents of one hoping to emigrate to another - for a better quality of life.

Cancel culture and PC propaganda targeting the youth and conflating emotional senses of fairness and justice have obscured basic observation of measurable facts. The ultimate result of the current policy in the U.S. will undoubtedly result in a lower quality of life - from the top down, as a result of sacrificing competency for an equality agenda of misconstrued tolerance.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#92
post #88
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If both get a "1" on the table, then can you please the explain the comparison you made to reach that conclusion (that they're both equal)? I'm just confused as to how diversity relates to the competence of an individual/team. I am myself considered a "minority", which I have always felt quite patronizing (let alone the fact that it's incoherent: I'm a North African arab, the US Census considers me white but Canada c…

No that the table would be taking into account many factors. Even deciding to prioritise say a certain quality or skill work out what the bast candidate is from a score of say a total of 30/40 based on their application. Then shortlist to give the top few a chance at interview. Performance at interview doesn't reflect the choice of who is interviewed. The choice of who gets to interview can be based on many factors a…

I wish I could answer your comment, but I really had trouble reading half your sentences. Please work out your punctuation please.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#93

No, it's not okay. Unfortunately it is normal. I have been in charge of hiring decisions in the past and was explicitly told to "prefer women and minorities". Because of this, I felt it was my duty to discriminate against women and minorities, to at least balance out the decision-making somewhat (I was not the sole hiring decider). I would prefer not to discriminate at all. But in the current climate, to anyone with…

I feel this is almost entirely the wrong way to go about this.

"Balancing the scale", e.g. applying targeted discrimination as an attempt to offset other perceived discrimination, is how we got into this mess!!

Pick the best person for the role, regardless of race/color/creed/sex/... and advocate your peers do the same. This is the only correct answer here.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#94

No, it's not okay. Unfortunately it is normal. I have been in charge of hiring decisions in the past and was explicitly told to "prefer women and minorities". Because of this, I felt it was my duty to discriminate against women and minorities, to at least balance out the decision-making somewhat (I was not the sole hiring decider). I would prefer not to discriminate at all. But in the current climate, to anyone with…

You're not really correcting a wrong. You basically propagating the exact same logic they are. using racism/sexism to fight racism/sexism.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#95
This seems to be a extremely common concern based on what I see on HN.

In real life I’m not certain this is the case, but it would seem that white males feel especially persecuted even to the point where it’s not uncommon to see comments suggesting they are the most discriminated against group.

I’ll also point out how common this sentiment has been since the civil rights movement.

Is this just perception or is this reality?

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#96

No, it's not okay. Unfortunately it is normal. I have been in charge of hiring decisions in the past and was explicitly told to "prefer women and minorities". Because of this, I felt it was my duty to discriminate against women and minorities, to at least balance out the decision-making somewhat (I was not the sole hiring decider). I would prefer not to discriminate at all. But in the current climate, to anyone with…

Giving preference to white men is the right thing to do because they’re being excluded from the workforce?

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#97

Diversity has actual value, unless you're only making software for educated white men. I'm sure this ideology gets lost in some departments and it feels like a checkbox exercise, but that doesn't make it meritless. It's not just who's the best, it's who's best for the team and the company.

So if I understand your point correctly, you're suggesting that all forms of discrimination based on innate characteristics are acceptable, as long as there is advantage to the business?

No. You still hire qualified people, but you take positive action to ensure you're not only interviewing candidates from (eg) white male backgrounds.

A lot of hiring mechanisms involved social ties, and only posting jobs to places you've previously hired from. Shockingly diversity doesn't improve.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#98
As a male from Eastern Europe I feel extremely concerned about this.

When I was growing in the 90s we've literally had monthly income of around $200 for a family of four.

My family got first PC when I was around 13. Internet, just before I started university in 2009. Being potentially discriminated due to "white male privileges" would be almost laughable if happening in the film and not real life.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#99

No, it's not okay. Unfortunately it is normal. I have been in charge of hiring decisions in the past and was explicitly told to "prefer women and minorities". Because of this, I felt it was my duty to discriminate against women and minorities, to at least balance out the decision-making somewhat (I was not the sole hiring decider). I would prefer not to discriminate at all. But in the current climate, to anyone with…

I feel this is almost entirely the wrong way to go about this. "Balancing the scale", e.g. applying targeted discrimination as an attempt to offset other perceived discrimination, is how we got into this mess!! Pick the best person for the role, regardless of race/color/creed/sex/... and advocate your peers do the same. This is the only correct answer here.

It's not to offset perceived discrimination, but explicitly stated discrimination policy. When you can't change the policy, you can at least do the right thing and try to go against it. When two people are equally qualified I will advocate for the white male, because I know that the others won't. If I simply say "They are both equally qualified" then the white male will never be hired, and this is wrong.

It is unfortunate that their decisions require me to make this decision, but ethically and game theoretically it is correct. If the policy was meritorious then this would be unnecessary.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#100
post #87
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allowing a company culture that reduces people down to their race and gender during recruiting has a rather significant risk that it may spread to other part of the company. Do we want a company cultures that operate based on biases and stereotypes? I don't. I also do not believe in collective punishment in order to improve society. The best thing we can do to society to remove biases and stereotypes is to encourage…

You are not being charitable with the arguments of those you disagree with. People are not reduced down to their race or gender, those aspects are one factor among multiple. No company is hiring random people matching their desired profiles off the street simply because of those characteristics. I have a lot to say about your views on this. First of all, I am not concerned about company cultures. There are way bigger…

If an applicant is being thrown out on the sole attribute of their race and gender, then those individuals are being reduced down to only two bits of information. One can not look only on those not being discriminating. It would be as silly as saying that no university was selecting random people from the street matching the male gender in the 19th century.

The phrase I am borrowing is from Carl Sagan, where he is using the even less charitable argument that discrimination is simply lazy thinking. Instead of evaluating an individual as a full person we reduce them down to single bit of information like gender and race. It is what people do when they are unwilling to do the thinking needed to actually see a person. The result is nothing less than evil, historically and present.

You might not care about culture, but those being hired usually do. A culture of discrimination is a culture of distrust. On HN we see with a fairly common regularity articles where once being happy to have joined a company under those circumstances, the diversity hire find themselves very unhappy and leaves. The experience can so bad that people quit the profession itself, or determine that the only functional work culture is a mono-culture and joins a company with only their gender or race.

Last, I have a rather strong warning against trying to solve the ills of the past with ills of the present. It is less than a century ago that a country in Europe decided to go after a demographic that held a historical strong position in mercantile and banking. Resenting a demographic based on what their grand and grandgrand, and grandgrandgrand parents did is a very dark place to be.

> Nothing has worked

We do know what works, it just people are unwilling to do it. The way to address class differences between demographic is to raise the social support. Gender segregation is effectively reduced through support programs like mentorships, which raises understanding and cooperation. It is hard work. What does not work in both cases is more discrimination.

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