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Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

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Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#111

Post by quanticle »

wzdd wrote: post #10

There is a good argument to be made that Google is a more influential company than Apple, but this article doesn't present it. Once you take away the unsubstantiated (at least in the article) fluff, such as "Google preaches openness because it benefits the company", here are Google's concrete accomplishments, according to the article: 1) Their core technology, Google search. 2) The fact that they bought YouTube. This…

The inevitability argument can be made for YouTube, but I don't think it can be made for Google search. Remember, before the PageRank algorithm, people thought Internet search was a dead end. The leading search providers were continuing to push pure boolean queries; an approach that was quickly becoming unsustainable under the mass of spam that was starting to exploit text-relevance metrics.

Google's use of link-based popularity metrics was truly revolutionary, in that it wasn't apparent by simply extrapolating existing trends in Internet search engines.

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#112

Post by dy »

tdfx wrote: post #38
wzdd wrote: post #10

There is a good argument to be made that Google is a more influential company than Apple, but this article doesn't present it. Once you take away the unsubstantiated (at least in the article) fluff, such as "Google preaches openness because it benefits the company", here are Google's concrete accomplishments, according to the article: 1) Their core technology, Google search. 2) The fact that they bought YouTube. This…

I agree. Someone would've "eventually" improved on Excite, Yahoo, and AltaVista's search. Someone would've "eventually" purchased YouTube. The argue that the author uses against Apple applies equally or more-so to every point he makes about Google.

I just recently found out that Robin (the CEO of Baidu) was also working on algorithms similar to Pagerank. It changed my perception of Google as a brilliant once-in-a-lifetime flash of insight to much more "the idea was in the air" and these guys rocked the execution.

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#113

Post by Daishiman »

MostAwesomeDude wrote: post #74
oemera wrote: post #63

Oh come on! "Zappos did change how we buy shoes, so what?" really? No it didn't. Maybe for you in the USA but in Europe it didn't. But the iPod and iTunes store changed how we buy music in the whole world. See the difference? Changing something in the whole world is a way bigger challenge than just establishing a new shop with convenient shopping methods in the USA. I'm sorry if this sounds like fanboism but you shou…

Actually, I feel that the group that should get the most credit for changing how we buy music, worldwide, is Napster, for the remarkable idea that we can change how we buy music by not buying it.

Don't forget Bram Cohen for Bittorrent.

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#114

Post by mgkimsal »

philwelch wrote: post #59
veyron wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more subtle than that. Jobs had a preternatural ability to determine when a technology was sufficiently mature and when people were ready to accept a well-executed solution. Some would argue, for example, that Newton was executed well (but people weren't ready for it). I would imagine a lot of startups find themselves in a situation where people simply aren't ready for the solution that is brought to the table.

Newton was not only premature, it didn't fit any useful form factor (too small for a tablet, too big for a pocket device) and it didn't do anything necessary. An iPod plays music and an iPhone is a phone. Additionally, the state of Newton's handwriting recognition was immature.

And it likely still is immature for the mass market, all these years later.

Notice that handwriting recognition was not part of ipod/iphone/ipad/ios. Rather than continuing down that path, Apple went in a different direction altogether.

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#115

Post by fpgeek »

nirvana wrote: post #60
nitrogen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...by google fans because they want to believe that it is ok for google to rip off the iPhone and give away a counterfeit operating system. Here you go too far. You don't have to like Android, MeeGo, or any other non-Apple OS, but calling any of them counterfeit is highly inaccurate. Google isn't stealing Apple's software and repackaging it as their own. In the form of the oft-used car analogy: you're accusing Hyunda…

Google is, in fact, stealing Apple's patented inventions and repackaging it as their own. Hence the sudden flare up in "patents are all bogus and a bad idea" propaganda. Before the announcement of the iPhone the Android phones looked a whole lot like blackberries. Google didn't spend 7 years coming up with a multi-touch operating system, and the underlying technology. They spent one year copying what Apple did, right…

"They spent one year"

This, in and of itself, is a sign of how innovative Android is, under-the-hood. Google and everyone else saw the iPhone at the same time. Google took one year to have a baseline-credible iPhone competitor ready. Palm took two (and they had the advantage of starting over from scratch). Microsoft took three. Nokia took four (so long they eventually killed the platform and have embraced Microsoft). RIM still hasn't gotten there.

Even though most people don't realize it, being a fast follower isn't easy. The Android team planned for their OS to be flexible and retargetable from the start. You can see it in their architecture, some of their lower-level features (e.g. Intents, input frameworks) and you can see it in the speed of their "iPhone pivot".

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#116

Post by rphlx »

veyron wrote: post #33
raganwald wrote: post #9

Somewhat related: You know how we in the startup world are constantly chanting, "It's the execution that matters, not the idea?" Well, many of the discussions around Apple seem to boil down to one person saying that Apple copied/stole the idea, or the idea was inevitable, and the other person saying "Yeah, but Apple pulled off he execution ." To the extent that all of Apple's ideas in GUIs, mobile devices, music reta…

It's more subtle than that. Jobs had a preternatural ability to determine when a technology was sufficiently mature and when people were ready to accept a well-executed solution. Some would argue, for example, that Newton was executed well (but people weren't ready for it). I would imagine a lot of startups find themselves in a situation where people simply aren't ready for the solution that is brought to the table.

Or, he simply had enough money and influence to advertise and market his way to success, this time around.

I'd imagine the iPad got far, far more publicity than the Newton in its day.

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#117

Post by simcop2387 »

vacri wrote: post #95
nirvana wrote: post #7

I really don't understand the need to denigrate Apple. It almost seems as this spawns from an instinctive respect for the significance that Apple, and Steve Jobs specifically, have actually had. Apple invented the GUI (using some ideas they licensed from Xerox), as part of a project that Steve Jobs led. The NeXT cube inspired the web to some extent and made the first browser much easier to write. Apple invented the t…

Microsoft? Enterprise software. They still own this area HP Excellent quality servers and network hardware. It's hard for that to be sexy because it doesn't have a touchscreen, but just because the masses don't know about it doesn't mean that they're an also-ran. Dell Perfected mass-marketing of PCs, bringing computing costs waaaay down for everyone. Lenovo Meh, they bought IBM's line of laptops only a few years ago.…

While I know this is semantics, I'd argue that Sony (and the XBox) didn't create a massive market where there was none. Nintendo and Sega previously had the market in shackles. Sony expanded it immensely with the PS1 and the PS2. I say expanded because the market grew around the one that was already there. They certainly did affect the market though. The hardware proved capable of providing games that were previously difficult to impossible to make on Nintendo's and Sega's systems.

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#118

Post by vacri »

simcop2387 wrote: post #117
vacri wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft? Enterprise software. They still own this area HP Excellent quality servers and network hardware. It's hard for that to be sexy because it doesn't have a touchscreen, but just because the masses don't know about it doesn't mean that they're an also-ran. Dell Perfected mass-marketing of PCs, bringing computing costs waaaay down for everyone. Lenovo Meh, they bought IBM's line of laptops only a few years ago.…

While I know this is semantics, I'd argue that Sony (and the XBox) didn't create a massive market where there was none. Nintendo and Sega previously had the market in shackles. Sony expanded it immensely with the PS1 and the PS2. I say expanded because the market grew around the one that was already there. They certainly did affect the market though. The hardware proved capable of providing games that were previously…

Given the context of the general argument involving Apple 'creating' versus 'expanding', your semantics are a good point. the PS and XBox massively expanded a nascent market - but there were also innovations like the development of online profiles and the like.

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#119

Post by rbanffy »

wheels wrote: post #88
nirvana wrote: post #7

I really don't understand the need to denigrate Apple. It almost seems as this spawns from an instinctive respect for the significance that Apple, and Steve Jobs specifically, have actually had. Apple invented the GUI (using some ideas they licensed from Xerox), as part of a project that Steve Jobs led. The NeXT cube inspired the web to some extent and made the first browser much easier to write. Apple invented the t…

I like my Macbook as much as the next guy, but this is way too frothy: > Apple invented the GUI No, they didn't. Xerox invented the GUI. You seem to be aware of Xerox's role, so I can't figure out why you'd assert that Apple making use of those ideas later would then constitute them "inventing" the GUI. > NeXT cube inspired the web That's stretching things, to say the least. The early web was a fairly incremental ste…

Some minor nitpicks

> Xerox invented the GUI

Not really either. Engelbart has show mice and windows before the PARC folks. I remember people dragging stuff with light-pens on IBM's 2250's and other similar GUI-like behavior on high-end CAD and image manipulation software. Was the Star close to what Apple offered? Yes. Was Star clunky in comparison? Yes. It was also 3 times more expensive. I think the single most meaningful innovation in Lisa was the mouse drag actions and the clipboard metaphor. They made a convenient bridge between physical and virtual objects that took windows & icons one step further.

> The early web was a fairly incremental step from Gopher

It reminds me more of local-based hypertext and SGML. From that to HTTP, it's a very easy jump.

> Apple didn't even produce the first touch-screen phone.

Indeed. I owned a Sony Ericsson P-800. It was multi-tasking, had a huge touchscreen and, when I first saw the iPhone, I felt it was very "meh". Nice animation, beautiful icons but I had a more functional phone. And the honor of the first touch-screen smartphone belongs to the IBM/BellSouth's Simon. Unless you count Esslinger's concepts (they show a touchscreen desktop phone that predated the Simon).

And yes. I agree that Apple's most revolutionary product was the Apple II, but it must share the spotlight with Commodore, Atari and Radio Shack. The Apple II is (or, at least, should be) a source of inspiration for engineers: it's simple, small, concise and incredibly rich in functionality.

> there hasn't been anything that Google's done thusfar that I'd nominate for being society changing

An open-source post-PC OS seems quite impressive. Helping move data into web apps, dooming local storag, too.

Re: Apple changed everything? Yeah, right.

#120

Post by 5hoom »

Mutek wrote: post #103
richcollins wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Apple's genius is in making technology usable, not just making technology.

usable for who? I cannot image something more usable than a simple e17 + xterm on a Debian to develop my Perl programs.. so I think your sentence must be refined, don't you?

C'mon now.

I think you are being intentionally dense. We all know what is meant by "making technology usable" is "making technology usable - for muggles" ;)

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