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Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

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Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#41
post #22

Your perceptions are accurate and you are not alone in your distaste of modern racism.

Somehow "best candidate for the job" translates far top much into "but they can't perform as well so need help" I've found. I do find myself covering myself whenever I have to say no candidate X is just not as suited for the role and I don't care what their name/gender is. For reference, I work with some excellent people of various combinations of gender, orientation, creed, background (unis are great for this) and f…

If both get a "1" on the table, then can you please the explain the comparison you made to reach that conclusion (that they're both equal)?

I'm just confused as to how diversity relates to the competence of an individual/team.

I am myself considered a "minority", which I have always felt quite patronizing (let alone the fact that it's incoherent: I'm a North African arab, the US Census considers me white but Canada considers me Arab...). The last thing I want is for my achievements to be seen through the lens of Race than for what they are.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#42
A difficult issue with equity in hiring is that companies do not hire the _best_ applicants. People tend to think about hiring like that, but it can't actually work like that. Hiring is not a tournament; you have some (high) bar and just find enough people who can pass it, and then you stop looking! even though there might have been better people out there.

I believe this is one of the very problematic factors that drives lack of diversity in tech hiring; for example, a historically black college might pump out fewer extremely high caliber students as a result of centuries of marginalization (and not as a result of the race of the applicants); this makes going through the new hire application stacks from some schools more expensive, so companies just don't do it -- even though if they _were_ to go through that _entire_ stack, they _would_ find some candidates who meet their bar.

Relatedly, the cheapest way to find candidates are through referrals, but referrals are very likely to reinforce whatever dynamics already exist in the organization (whether that's in education, favorite sports, intro/extravertedness, race, religion, language, school, city, former experiences...)

So if you have, e.g., a referral program, or you go to college career fairs for the colleges where most of your employees went to, etc, there are already plenty of people who you are not interviewing who would pass your interview bar. And that is unfortunately already based, albeit indirectly, on race, religion, sex, etc.

Seeing it happen in the "affirmative" form is kind of like a trolley problem; you can intervene (decline to interview overrepresented groups) and cause a still deontologically problematic but potentially better outcome (intentionally decline to interview potentially qualified candidates, but increase equity and diversity in your org), or do nothing and claim absolution of responsibility, but cause an avoidable worse outcome (by passively refusing to interview essentially entire underrepresented groups).

But in practice, things are more complicated. If you have to look in more diverse places for hires, you might need a more robust hiring system (e.g., less emphasis on coding tests or less emphasis on extensive system design experience and more emphasis on figuring out who can grow into roles, which is much harder to interview for; going to more places; having more avenues for finding applicants), and you might need to interview more people. That makes it expensive, and so the natural impulse might be to lower the bar just so you can maintain your hiring at the same cost.

I don't have any explanation of the perfect way to do it that actually is equitable. It might be nearly impossible; hiring is already a really hard thing to do right. But I don't think its correct or reasonable to think of doing nothing as a "neutral" and purely meritocratic approach.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#43

Sidestepping the specific, delicate topic: Once a business starts making decisions based on anything arbitrary (e.g. nepotism, or meeting specific quotas that aren't related to the business), it's a slow downhill slide in my experience. Practically: There's not much you can do other than quietly exit.

This begs the question of where one can exit to when the arbitrary decision-making extends to every corner of society, including many of its most fundamental institutions.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#44
post #21

No. Why is diversity an explicit goal anyways? What is there to gain from "diversity" in particular superficial diversity (skin color, sex) vs intellectual diversity? > Over the last decade I think there has often been an unspoken preference towards candidates that improve diversity, and I don't have a problem with this. You're part of the problem. Discrimination is always a problem, even if it's subtle. We (the tech…

People have different experiences that may be relevant in ways you can't know because you didn't have them.

The classic example is the video of the black man showing the soap dispenser not working with his hand until he put a white piece of paper under it.

Parents, or people who take care of children (which is still mostly women), will have different ideas about when they may be available for things.

These are just two examples. You say discrimination is always a problem, but if a space is only full of one kind of person there may already be discrimination happening.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#45
post #39
post #21

No. Why is diversity an explicit goal anyways? What is there to gain from "diversity" in particular superficial diversity (skin color, sex) vs intellectual diversity? > Over the last decade I think there has often been an unspoken preference towards candidates that improve diversity, and I don't have a problem with this. You're part of the problem. Discrimination is always a problem, even if it's subtle. We (the tech…

> You're part of the problem. Not actively pushing back against something doesn't make one "part of the problem". It makes one a bystander, and no, bystanders are not part part of the problem they are neutrals. They could be more "helpful" for our cause if they where not, but they are not part of the problem, they are "untapped potential" if you will. This kind of rhetoric bullies people into action and even tough I…

Read the quoted part again. S/He wasn't a bystander, s/he supported the discrimination (probably silently), as long as it was subtle.

Obviously I'm not saying you always have to risk your job/career/livelihood/reputation to take unpopular (but right) action. That's just a nice-to-have.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#46
Is this perhaps an opportunity for some companies to explicitly do blind hiring, or something along those lines? I'm thinking of Coinbase (and others) who have taken a somewhat contrarian approach and said that the workplace is just for work, and not politics. They've taken flak for it, but are also probably(?) attracting people for whom that kind of workplace is a positive. A company that goes out of their way to say "We don't discriminate in our hiring, positively or negatively" and follows through on it could probably pick up talented engineers who are otherwise being filtered out of the hiring process due to their skin color / gender.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#47

This submission is flagged, but it shouldn't IMO. Everyone goes through hiring processes, everyone has been in a team onboarding people, and this of course isn't alien to tech companies. This submission, from my POV is clearly on-topic.

While I'd like to agree, I have yet to see a discussion on this topic on HN ever be insightful, or let me learn something new.

It seems like it always devolves into the same opinions, and people just become more dug in and increasingly vitriolic.

I'd love to see a solution to how that problem could be addressed, but if I had to put in a vote for "lowest quality discussions on HN" it would be on the "DEI battle" topics.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, not the case at all in my experience. I feel like you’re reading different posts and comments than most people here.

Most people, or just you? Clearly we both have differing subjective experiences, why do you assume yours more accurately represents the majority view of the community?

Look at the other replies to your post and tell me.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#49
The argument you point out, about treating well-off groups equally as bad as those less well-off, is a bad argument and not what you should be thinking about. The practices you point out have nothing to do treating everyone equally bad. You are focusing on the unfortunate consequence of attempting to make right past injustices, rather than the effort to right past injustices. The goal is not to discriminate against young graduates. Rather, biasing hiring in favor of historically oppressed groups is an attempt to, in some small way, achieve a society we would have been in without things like racism and sexism. I understand this type of thing is frustrating for a qualified candidate who personally has a minuscule impact on society, yet is feeling the full brunt of a rejection. But I would encourage you to focus on the much more widespread similar feeling felt by those being helped up by such efforts.

Re: Ask HN: Is discrimination to promote diversity okay?

#50
post #39
post #21

No. Why is diversity an explicit goal anyways? What is there to gain from "diversity" in particular superficial diversity (skin color, sex) vs intellectual diversity? > Over the last decade I think there has often been an unspoken preference towards candidates that improve diversity, and I don't have a problem with this. You're part of the problem. Discrimination is always a problem, even if it's subtle. We (the tech…

> You're part of the problem. Not actively pushing back against something doesn't make one "part of the problem". It makes one a bystander, and no, bystanders are not part part of the problem they are neutrals. They could be more "helpful" for our cause if they where not, but they are not part of the problem, they are "untapped potential" if you will. This kind of rhetoric bullies people into action and even tough I…

I don’t like that rhetoric either, but unfortunately certain radical ideologies do not acknowledge neutrality. Maybe we can turn to John Stuart Mill for a more eloquent appeal:

“ Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.”

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