So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs • Hacker News Board

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#51

Post by Raphael_Amiard » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 10:11 PM UTC

jbrennan wrote: post #46

davidsiems wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get off your high horse. You could say the exact same thing about books, TV, movies, paintings, etc. Games are just like any other form media. Yes, many of them are superficial, but a lot of them tell incredible stories, teach life lessons, and evoke powerful emotions. To top it all off they can also be incredible teaching tools. Just because you think something's a waste of time doesn't mean other people aren't deri…

I fully agree video games are an important form of expression and art. They tell stories and evoke emotion and deserve to be treated like art. Having said that, typically those "sucked in programmers" are not the ones working on the "art" side of things, like the story, for example. I think the "sucking in" of talent is referring more to those whose talents are in development, and not so much in expression of art.

While i found your comment very insightful, i have to say that, even if you're not the one working on the "art" side of things, it can be extremely rewarding to make the existence of the final creation possible with your programming skills.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#52

Post by mostlycarbon » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 10:12 PM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #16

I've worked for a couple of game studios over the years. Unfortunately, conditions were atrocious at both, something that seems to be fairly common in the industry. My hypothesis is so many coders spent their teen years playing video games, wanting to write them, that they are willing to work in sub-par conditions. I won't work at another one, unless it's my own. Sadly, I'm not skilled enough to start my own.

There are two quotes that I remember from my CS profs that have stuck with me over the years.

AI prof addressing statistical vs. rule-based learning: "All models are wrong. Some models are useful."

Systems level programming prof: "Now that you have a thorough understanding of programming all up and down the stack, if you want to minimize the amount of money you make and maximize the hours you work, then take a job as a video game programmer."

I know several coders who have worked in the gaming industry for 5+ years and they're all completely jaded at this point.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#53

Post by gfodor » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 10:21 PM UTC

withad wrote: post #26

gfodor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the inevitable response that I get when I dare suggest that those of us with the gift of being able to program computers in such a interesting time choose wisely where we place our efforts. I'm not saying it's immoral, unrewarding, or not plain fun to play and build video games. I'm saying that in life you get to choose how you spend your time, and in my view building the next killing simulator when you have…

And what is the "so much more" that these talented programmers could (and, in your opinion, should) be doing instead? I'm genuinely curious, since most programming jobs that I can think of aren't exactly world-changing. Yes, a programmer in the video game industry might spend their days debugging the mammary physics of "the next killing simulator". But they might also create the next Braid or Minecraft, helping a lot…

I think you bring up a good point. The person making the mammary physics simulation or Braid are probably two different types of people.

I think the reason for this is because the person working on Braid chose to balance technical challenges with other things important to them. A 2d platformer is certainly less interesting to build from an engineering standpoint than building a navier-stokes based milk dynamics solver in CUDA :) But, the Braid engineer knows they are working on an ambitious, novel piece of art. It's this tradeoff that I don't think most people are making, and I think most video game engineers do not see themselves as agents to push the boundary of contributing in an artistic sense to a greater whole as those on games like Braid do, particularly.

The post in this thread sparked my comment because it mentioned the most drawing position in gaming is the coveted engine programmer position. To me, this sounds like people want to work on bleeding-edge technical problems without regards to the fact their engines are probably being applied towards shoveling out violent, dry crap from the mainstream gaming studios. I once had one-dimensional goals like this too ("I want to work on global illumination algorithms!") but this has changed for me dramatically over time.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#54

Post by gfodor » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 10:37 PM UTC

headbiznatch wrote: post #43

gfodor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the inevitable response that I get when I dare suggest that those of us with the gift of being able to program computers in such a interesting time choose wisely where we place our efforts. I'm not saying it's immoral, unrewarding, or not plain fun to play and build video games. I'm saying that in life you get to choose how you spend your time, and in my view building the next killing simulator when you have…

This response is inevitable because you are sharing this opinion with people who can see through your biases. I'm happy enough that someone programming games isn't hacking my bank account. Does that register on your personal Richter scale for a valuable use of one's time?

I'm not really a fan of moral relativism. I don't think it's unfair to claim that certain applications of engineering are objectively more valuable to society as a whole than others, or more rewarding to the person doing them. It's fair to disagree with me on the particulars, of course, and argue the point, but it's not fair to say such judgements are impossible to make in the first place.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#55

Post by gfodor » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 10:38 PM UTC

blackhole wrote: post #24

gfodor wrote: post #8

Video games are an interesting phenomenon. They manage to pack many of the most interesting problems of computer science into one of the most superficial, yet profitable, applications. They're kind of like the warping of space time, an anomaly of extremes that manages to relentlessly suck brilliant minds away due to its siren call. And yes, I love video games, and considered working in the field. But, stepping back y…

While a lot of people inevitably dislike these kinds of high-and-mighty accusations of superficiality, as an aspiring video game programmer whose sole goal in life is to have the maximum positive impact on humanity possible, I have given this much thought. I have a rather interesting combination of analytic and artistic talents that can only be fully taken advantage of in the context of a game and its engine. I have…

This is an admirable post and I appreciate you making it! I think if more people thought through their actions as you do, the world would indeed be a better place (and we'd have better games to play as well :))

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#56

Post by gfodor » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 10:41 PM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #21

gfodor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the inevitable response that I get when I dare suggest that those of us with the gift of being able to program computers in such a interesting time choose wisely where we place our efforts. I'm not saying it's immoral, unrewarding, or not plain fun to play and build video games. I'm saying that in life you get to choose how you spend your time, and in my view building the next killing simulator when you have…

I think the problem is you appear to be judging others by the stick you are measuring yourself with. Everybody gets to decide what they feel is important, but HN'ers don't like others telling them what should be important to them.

On the other hand, sometimes being slapped in the face to think about what your working on and it's larger purpose can be like getting dunked into a pool of ice water for the first time.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#57

Post by mtogo » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 10:45 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #8

Video games are an interesting phenomenon. They manage to pack many of the most interesting problems of computer science into one of the most superficial, yet profitable, applications. They're kind of like the warping of space time, an anomaly of extremes that manages to relentlessly suck brilliant minds away due to its siren call. And yes, I love video games, and considered working in the field. But, stepping back y…

More important things like making webapps that find restaurants in your area?

Get over yourself. Your web/mobile apps, as cool as they are, aren't more important or any better for anyone than video games unless you're feeding starving children or freeing people from tyrannical government.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#58

Post by zach » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 10:48 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #17

kabdib wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most games are trainwrecks inside. They are /just good enough to ship/ and often no better. They are fragile, fickle things that for the most part have a market lifetime much shorter than the time it took to develop the title. You get your money back -- if you do -- in the first few months of sales. Games are pragmatic and hard, cheap bastards that chew up teams and spit them out. It's fun. :-)

I wonder if it's a different story with longer-running MMORPG's like WoW, FFXI, etc. Wouldn't the situation force the development process to be more stable and follow best practices?

Even following best practices, the top priority of the project should be to fulfill the players' expectations and realize the designers' vision. That's not as compatible with technical excellence at every stage of the project as you'd hope it would be.

On well-planned projects, best practices of development help achieve that priority throughout the project. However, the more problematic development becomes, the more things come into conflict with that top priority. And in practice, planning is almost never good enough to prevent that as the project wears on. Project management that can push back the day when that vicious cycle kicks in is invaluable.

Usually, in reality, the top priority is to ensure the short-term viability of the project or (worse) the studio or (much worse) the studio management. It's like Robocop's hidden directive, sadly. That diversion of focus, especially early in a project, is totally poisonous.

If anything, MMOs are more susceptible to these kinds of existential threats than most projects. They're incredibly challenging feats for even a massively skilled development team. The ability to produce an MMO is actually a fairly good way to measure how well-buffered a development environment is from this kind of insecurity.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#59

Post by stonemetal » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 11:53 PM UTC

agavin wrote: post #27

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #16

I've worked for a couple of game studios over the years. Unfortunately, conditions were atrocious at both, something that seems to be fairly common in the industry. My hypothesis is so many coders spent their teen years playing video games, wanting to write them, that they are willing to work in sub-par conditions. I won't work at another one, unless it's my own. Sadly, I'm not skilled enough to start my own.

All the studios that consistently turn out brilliant games: Naughty Dog, Valve, Epic, Blizzard and many many others are really well run. Working there might often be brutal because of how hard the job is and pressure, but they know the process of making great games and the quality of employees is very very high. It's less so at the big corporate studios where marketing and big company policy has heavily infiltrated t…

Is that true though? Rockstar has a reputation for turning out great games and being one of the worst places to work.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#60

Post by rhygar » Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 11:56 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #8

Video games are an interesting phenomenon. They manage to pack many of the most interesting problems of computer science into one of the most superficial, yet profitable, applications. They're kind of like the warping of space time, an anomaly of extremes that manages to relentlessly suck brilliant minds away due to its siren call. And yes, I love video games, and considered working in the field. But, stepping back y…

People like this creep me out. Thank god we live in a society that has free choice of work.