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Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

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Re: Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

#21

It’s always bugged me that science claims there are trillions of neutrinos going through me, yet can hardly detect them with a nearly trillion dollar machine and a doctorate. Then there’s dark energy, which just seems like a lame excuse for saying “we don’t know”. Nobody says what goes through my body but me! (I’m being funny, y’all! Happy holidays!)

John Updike wrote a poem about the crassness of neutrinos:

http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/~crawford/PSG/PSG21/204_97_L21....

Re: Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

#22
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting that you class dark energy (the thing accelerating universal expansion) as, “We don’t know,” but don’t put gravity into that same category. They are both aspects of general relativity that we have failed to integrate with our other most successful fundamental theories, but if you asked an average person on the street I’m sure they’d put them in very different categories of understanding, as you did.

The thing with gravity is that it is kind of easy to detect, even for a layperson, while dark energy and dark matter haven't been detected at all, by anyone, but only used as mathematical devices to make indirect measurements of large scale structures align with our models. So, it isn't only the "average man on the street" that thinks there are good reasons to put them in very different categories of understanding.

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1489/

The mouseover-text is the important bit: "Of these four forces, there's one we don't really understand." "Is it the weak force or the strong--" "It's gravity."

That's even though it's the one with the simplest equations.

Re: Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

#23

It’s always bugged me that science claims there are trillions of neutrinos going through me, yet can hardly detect them with a nearly trillion dollar machine and a doctorate. Then there’s dark energy, which just seems like a lame excuse for saying “we don’t know”. Nobody says what goes through my body but me! (I’m being funny, y’all! Happy holidays!)

[deleted]

Re: Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

#24

It’s always bugged me that science claims there are trillions of neutrinos going through me, yet can hardly detect them with a nearly trillion dollar machine and a doctorate. Then there’s dark energy, which just seems like a lame excuse for saying “we don’t know”. Nobody says what goes through my body but me! (I’m being funny, y’all! Happy holidays!)

> seems like a lame excuse for saying “we don’t know”. Dark matter/energy aren’t excuses, they’re labels for things that behave like matter and energy but whose nature is unknown.

Well, dark matter at least to this layperson’s eye a label for observations that are most easily explained by matter, which is not quite the same as a “thing that behaves like matter”.

Re: Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

#26

It’s always bugged me that science claims there are trillions of neutrinos going through me, yet can hardly detect them with a nearly trillion dollar machine and a doctorate. Then there’s dark energy, which just seems like a lame excuse for saying “we don’t know”. Nobody says what goes through my body but me! (I’m being funny, y’all! Happy holidays!)

In all seriousness, I found myself wondering about those numbers before; but consider that there's on the order of 10^27 atoms in your body. So, if we assume a trillion neutrinos in your body, that indicates that for each neutrino in your body, there are 10^15 atoms - that's one part per quadrillion! A machine capable of detecting neutrinos in your body would need to be _unimaginably_ sensitive, before even consideri…

Look at it this way: Solar neutrinos carry away approximately 1% of the total fusion power output of the Sun. This works out to about 14 Watts per square meter at the distance of the Earth. The area of a human adult body front-on is about a square meter.

It's pretty easy to detect 14 W of typical forms of radiation at those scales! If it were light, it would be equivalent to the light put out by something like a laptop screen, spread out just a bit. You can see something like that with your eyes from a kilometer away!

Re: Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

#27

Would there be any good reason or theoretically practical way to use neutrinos for communication? Asking because in 3 Body Problem it’s seen as a “civilized” way to communicate compared to radio waves.

Neutrinos are produced by radioactive decay, and they interact very weakly with ordinary matter, making them extremely difficult to detect.

Seems like the exact opposite qualities of something you'd want to use for communication.

Re: Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

#28

Would there be any good reason or theoretically practical way to use neutrinos for communication? Asking because in 3 Body Problem it’s seen as a “civilized” way to communicate compared to radio waves.

While neutrinos are not very difficult to generate, they are extremely, astoundingly difficult to detect. Unless we discover a new type of matter that interacts more strongly with neutrinos, we're stuck with cavern-sized detectors that can detect single-digit numbers of neutrinos (out of many trillions), unreliably.

Re: Physicists detect signs of neutrinos at Large Hadron Collider

#29

Would there be any good reason or theoretically practical way to use neutrinos for communication? Asking because in 3 Body Problem it’s seen as a “civilized” way to communicate compared to radio waves.

Neutrinos are produced by radioactive decay, and they interact very weakly with ordinary matter, making them extremely difficult to detect. Seems like the exact opposite qualities of something you'd want to use for communication.

If there were a way to reliably detect neutrinos in sufficient quantities they'd be ideal since you could send messages through the earth and at near light speed, I suppose.
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