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So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

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Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#41

Post by tansey »

gfodor wrote: post #19
davidsiems wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get off your high horse. You could say the exact same thing about books, TV, movies, paintings, etc. Games are just like any other form media. Yes, many of them are superficial, but a lot of them tell incredible stories, teach life lessons, and evoke powerful emotions. To top it all off they can also be incredible teaching tools. Just because you think something's a waste of time doesn't mean other people aren't deri…

This is the inevitable response that I get when I dare suggest that those of us with the gift of being able to program computers in such a interesting time choose wisely where we place our efforts. I'm not saying it's immoral, unrewarding, or not plain fun to play and build video games. I'm saying that in life you get to choose how you spend your time, and in my view building the next killing simulator when you have…

Actually, 3D games are a GREAT test-bed for AI research. Some of the best AI algorithm competitions in academia are possible solely because of the game industry's awesome killing simulators.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#42

Post by ajg1977 »

kabdib wrote: post #5
acgourley wrote: post #2

It's worth reading this even if you're not interested in games or the industry that makes them. The game industry is one of the most mature industries in software and it offers a possible future for YOUR corner of the software world. Besides being one of the longest running industries in software, it iterates teams and products rapidly. Because of this it has performed a gradient decent more than any other software i…

Most games are trainwrecks inside. They are /just good enough to ship/ and often no better. They are fragile, fickle things that for the most part have a market lifetime much shorter than the time it took to develop the title. You get your money back -- if you do -- in the first few months of sales. Games are pragmatic and hard, cheap bastards that chew up teams and spit them out. It's fun. :-)

I'd love to know what you base this opinion on.

Every game I've shipped has been far more stable than the majority of applications I use on a daily basis today. Most of those codebases where then used in other titles, aside from the very game-specific parts.

Sony/Nintendo etc require that your game runs for 1-3 days without a crash, on a platform without virtual memory, before they'll put it on a disc that cannot be patched (well, until this-gen of consoles. Now it's just expensive to patch).

Quite a bit different from platforms such as iOS where developers get upset that Apple take five days to approve updates for for free (fail a Sony submission and you'll be paying $$$$$)

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#43

Post by headbiznatch »

gfodor wrote: post #19
davidsiems wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get off your high horse. You could say the exact same thing about books, TV, movies, paintings, etc. Games are just like any other form media. Yes, many of them are superficial, but a lot of them tell incredible stories, teach life lessons, and evoke powerful emotions. To top it all off they can also be incredible teaching tools. Just because you think something's a waste of time doesn't mean other people aren't deri…

This is the inevitable response that I get when I dare suggest that those of us with the gift of being able to program computers in such a interesting time choose wisely where we place our efforts. I'm not saying it's immoral, unrewarding, or not plain fun to play and build video games. I'm saying that in life you get to choose how you spend your time, and in my view building the next killing simulator when you have…

This response is inevitable because you are sharing this opinion with people who can see through your biases. I'm happy enough that someone programming games isn't hacking my bank account. Does that register on your personal Richter scale for a valuable use of one's time?

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#44

Post by joelburget »

ajg1977 wrote: post #39
joelburget wrote: post #31

I wish people would stop glorifying how many hours they work and how little sleep they get, "You need to live without sleep (4 hours a night every day for years baby!)." Sounds juvenile to me.

Read the last sentence before taking quotes out of context - "being a lead is all about responsibility". If you're the lead and things start going south on your project then you'd better be prepared to start leading and taking on whatever is needed to get your game shipped. I know it's cool to preach about working smarter instead of harder, but getting a game out of the door and into a box usually requires large dose…

I agree somewhat. Yes, a lead has more responsibility, and will work as hard as the other team members. Sometimes they may have to push to get the product shipped.

That is a completely different thing than four hours of sleep a night for years.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#45

Post by 16BitTons »

gfodor wrote: post #19
davidsiems wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get off your high horse. You could say the exact same thing about books, TV, movies, paintings, etc. Games are just like any other form media. Yes, many of them are superficial, but a lot of them tell incredible stories, teach life lessons, and evoke powerful emotions. To top it all off they can also be incredible teaching tools. Just because you think something's a waste of time doesn't mean other people aren't deri…

This is the inevitable response that I get when I dare suggest that those of us with the gift of being able to program computers in such a interesting time choose wisely where we place our efforts. I'm not saying it's immoral, unrewarding, or not plain fun to play and build video games. I'm saying that in life you get to choose how you spend your time, and in my view building the next killing simulator when you have…

"I have claimed that Escape is one of the main functions of fairy-stories, and since I do not disapprove of them, it is plain that I do not accept the tone of scorn or pity with which 'Escape' is now so often used. Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?" — J.R.R. Tolkien

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#46

Post by jbrennan »

davidsiems wrote: post #13
gfodor wrote: post #8

Video games are an interesting phenomenon. They manage to pack many of the most interesting problems of computer science into one of the most superficial, yet profitable, applications. They're kind of like the warping of space time, an anomaly of extremes that manages to relentlessly suck brilliant minds away due to its siren call. And yes, I love video games, and considered working in the field. But, stepping back y…

Get off your high horse. You could say the exact same thing about books, TV, movies, paintings, etc. Games are just like any other form media. Yes, many of them are superficial, but a lot of them tell incredible stories, teach life lessons, and evoke powerful emotions. To top it all off they can also be incredible teaching tools. Just because you think something's a waste of time doesn't mean other people aren't deri…

I fully agree video games are an important form of expression and art. They tell stories and evoke emotion and deserve to be treated like art.

Having said that, typically those "sucked in programmers" are not the ones working on the "art" side of things, like the story, for example.

I think the "sucking in" of talent is referring more to those whose talents are in development, and not so much in expression of art.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#47

Post by [deleted] »

gfodor wrote: post #19
davidsiems wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get off your high horse. You could say the exact same thing about books, TV, movies, paintings, etc. Games are just like any other form media. Yes, many of them are superficial, but a lot of them tell incredible stories, teach life lessons, and evoke powerful emotions. To top it all off they can also be incredible teaching tools. Just because you think something's a waste of time doesn't mean other people aren't deri…

This is the inevitable response that I get when I dare suggest that those of us with the gift of being able to program computers in such a interesting time choose wisely where we place our efforts. I'm not saying it's immoral, unrewarding, or not plain fun to play and build video games. I'm saying that in life you get to choose how you spend your time, and in my view building the next killing simulator when you have…

[deleted]

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#48

Post by gfodor »

icandoitbetter wrote: post #23
gfodor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the inevitable response that I get when I dare suggest that those of us with the gift of being able to program computers in such a interesting time choose wisely where we place our efforts. I'm not saying it's immoral, unrewarding, or not plain fun to play and build video games. I'm saying that in life you get to choose how you spend your time, and in my view building the next killing simulator when you have…

Speaking of self-reflection: a quick look at your profile revealed that you're working at an e-commence company and previously worked at an advertising solutions company. Do you consider those things less superficial than video games? Honest question.

Sure, and a fair one! I think there are a number of tradeoffs you can make when taking on a new project:

- Will this make me happy?

- Are the people involved good people I can enjoy working with?

- Will this develop my skills in the way I want for my future?

- Will this enable me to open doors later that are shut now?

- Does this have a positive impact on the world?

- Will this have a long-lasting impact?

- Is this ethical, will it be used for good or evil?

- Is it something that I can be proud of? That I'll tell my grandkids about?

I've been lucky enough to work on a variety of things all of which stretched these constraints in wildly different directions. In each case I've tried to push things towards a happy medium when it was clear things were tilted too far in one direction. I'm quite happy with what I am working on now, as it is with a great team, provides good technical challenges, and has a positive, real impact on thousands of people's lives in an ethical, positive way, while potentially having a long term impact on building sustainable, local economies as a whole.

The point of my post is not to 'judge' people doing things they enjoy. It's to point out that it's important to keep in mind these tradeoffs and be honest with yourself. At any point in my career I like to think if you asked me where what I was working on fell on these lines, I could give you an honest answer. I think there are many engineers who blindly follow technical problems wherever they lead, without thinking of the larger picture.

My original post was pointing out video games certainly, for the most part, fit into these tradeoffs in a common way. (Again, I am talking about applied software engineering in video games, not all facets of video games.) If you're working on fascinating computational geometry algorithms for the next game that lets people run around shooting each other in the head, I think you know where what you're doing falls on these dimensions, and I think it's important to know if you're comfortable there. (Yes, I play and love Quake 3.)

It's hard to phrase these things without people taking it personally, but I've known many engineers that wake up 10 years into their career and realize they've been working on incredibly interesting technical problems which are being applied to things they aren't really too stoked about.

Re: So you want to be a video game programmer? - The Specs

#50

Post by potatolicious »

ajg1977 wrote: post #39
joelburget wrote: post #31

I wish people would stop glorifying how many hours they work and how little sleep they get, "You need to live without sleep (4 hours a night every day for years baby!)." Sounds juvenile to me.

Read the last sentence before taking quotes out of context - "being a lead is all about responsibility". If you're the lead and things start going south on your project then you'd better be prepared to start leading and taking on whatever is needed to get your game shipped. I know it's cool to preach about working smarter instead of harder, but getting a game out of the door and into a box usually requires large dose…

The game industry puts this type of workload on more than just leads and managers - the rank and file toil for long hours with miserable pay (compared to the rest of the industry). There are a few exceptions to the rule - studios where life resembles something like normal, and crunch time is an anomaly, not year-round.

They are few and far between though. I grew up in Vancouver where EA has its largest studio presence, and the number of burned out game devs I've met is a little scary.

Video games is like Hollywood - it's glamorous, and has the tendency to suck in some great talent, chew them up, and spit them by the curb 2-4 years down the road. And this will not change so long as there's a lineup of talented artists and developers out the door and around the block waiting for their crack at what may just be the worst working environment known to software-dom in this country.

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