Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

stephendiehl.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

681–690 of 704 posts

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#681

Post by hirako2000 »

nice_byte wrote: post #433
hirako2000 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not your keys not your coins. Unless you trust some central authority to take care of you, which you should by now understand that doesn't always work, and when it doesn't work, it's usually a spectacular failure. So to answer your questions. Although possible, no reconcile is the pure spirit of a trustless network. Now? you make sure to avoid custodian services and keep your keys safe. or stay away from crypto until…

> Not your keys not your coins. so the same thing as "code is law", which is a fundamentally bad idea.

No idea is perfect. I find that one preferable over the other popular alternatives where a few people's whim are the law. Note: code is law doesn't imply it can't evolve, adapt, improves. the idea of code is law is the same as being against retro active legislation.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#682

Post by SuoDuanDao »

worik wrote: post #670
tim333 wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like gold or bitcoin if used as currency can be deflationary as in be worth more over time against good and services.

Fiat money deflates too.

If it has a steady supply and things are getting easier to produce, yes. Typically a larger amount is minted each year so that its value relative to goods and services decreases in a predictable fashion.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#683

Post by dqpb »

bradhe wrote: post #591
dqpb wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this is how progress happens. Someone complains about a whole industry in broad brushstrokes, someone else invalidates the complaint with a counter example, and we move forward with the better option.

Eh, a "clean" coal burning power plant (do those exist?) doesn't excuse the coal burning power industry. Same for crypto.

Let me get this straight, you think I’m saying that because Algorand is faster, cheaper, and more energy efficient than Bitcoin and Ethereum, that that makes it ok that Bitcoin and Ethereum are slow, expensive, and inefficient?

Have you never gone through the exercise of comparing alternatives before? Or evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of competing technologies?

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#684

Post by horsawlarway »

CTDOCodebases wrote: post #676
horsawlarway wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ledger itself does not know about the deal we made but we both know we made a deal and according to that deal you still owe me 1700 sats. Now with a traditional bank what happens if you claim you sent it and the bank says you didn't. How can I verify that the transaction took place? I can't. I have to trust what you or the bank tell me and I don't know who is telling the truth. Maybe the transaction got lost. M…

"Now what? Fill me in on how we resolve this situation in your mind, once we've reached this point." In the example you gave whether we chose to transact in cash, wire-transfer or bitcoin the result would be the same. I would have to rely on layers, civil or criminal courts, police, insurance companies, debt collectors, thugs or myself to physically retrieve the funds (or equivalent) if possible. If that was not poss…

> Personally I think if bitcoin doesn't overcome some of its hurdles soon it will probably just turn into a form of the existing banking network through legislation.

Ok - I think we're pretty closely aligned here.

I'm further along that trajectory than you, mainly because I think this isn't really an optional outcome that might be avoided, but rather the only functional end state of a currency: The currency is only as good as the government that mediates its exchange.

If mediating that exchange incurs costs, then the government will take steps to either stop mediating those exchanges (ex: China - where all crypto exchanges are illegal by default, so the legal system can no longer be used to offset the cost of those exchanges at cost to itself) or it will bring that currency under control so that it can make those costs predictable and acceptable (ex: The US - where crypto is getting "all the bad bits" added back through legislation)

Which means the original intent of crypto only works in this honeymoon period (which I actually think ended not too long after the silk road went down) where it happens to get treated as an asset by a government that hasn't yet found out that they're essentially mediating exchanges in a foreign currency for free (not something most governments want to do).

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#685

Post by horsawlarway »

MrMan wrote: post #569
horsawlarway wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok - so follow along with me here: I owned no bitcoins at the time I desired to trade bitcoins for a physical product (in this case: ~7g of Cannabis) What recourse do I have that does not require trusting a third party? I do not own the required compute power to mine it myself (not technically true at the time, although certainly true today) I'd like to have you walk me through the exact set of steps to acquire my bi…

They want you to go back to frontier days before specialization in the economy, you are supposed to hoard your wealth yourself and protect your family with a gun

This exactly! (not to mention only ever making exchanges in person, because remote exchanges require trust)

Which is hilarious. Because that's actually all that bitcoin was good for: black market deals/trades, where enforcement is left up to you anyways.

Unfortunately, that makes it a (fucking terrible) medium of exchange for absolutely anything else, unless you add back in all the government regulation that the crypto folks hate.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#686

Post by horsawlarway »

hirako2000 wrote: post #680
horsawlarway wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we both agree - the ledger is "accurate" only in the sense that the ledger matches... (drumroll) the ledger. Which is entirely true, and there are some useful properties to that, but the whole thing falls down the second you have a real dispute over the trade of goods for value (which I might remind you, outside of the pure speculation/gambling that occurs in bitcoin pricing, is the point of actually holding a cur…

the dispute concern is long solved. it happens every day with cash, but also with other form of payments. freight shows interesting practices. and, escrow is still an option. Spending these things? I can show you how to hold securely some wallet with your own private keys (no custody), receive then "spend" these things for a few pennies per transactions and with the guarantee nobody will interfere with our exchange.…

> Spending these things? I can show you how to hold securely some wallet with your own private keys (no custody), receive then "spend" these things for a few pennies per transactions and with the guarantee nobody will interfere with our exchange.

Yes, and because no one can interfere in the exchange, no one can prevent either party from abusing the other, and no third party can later reconcile the dispute without an outside framework.

I find it pretty unbelievable how comfortable the crypto crowd is about just dismissing reconciliation, when it's literally some of the oldest history have, and one of the more important roles of a functioning government (we literally have 4 thousand year old stone tablets dealing with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complaint_tablet_to_Ea-nasir)

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#687

Post by tim333 »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #548
sjtindell wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. The point I was making was one about emotion in finance - when I’m making money it’s easier to ignore rational doubts, and when I’m missing out it’s easier to focus on the negatives because a little voice in the back of my head wants it to fail.

You want it to fail or you want to be right? Nothing wrong with wanting to be right. If Tesla stays at a crazy high valuation for the long term, then several mental models I use and find valuable fall to pieces. That would be very annoying for me on several dimensions because it's likely they wouldn't be replaced with useful mental models. They'd be replaced with "ITS ALL JUST CHAOS".

Markets look to the future. The Tesla valuation makes sense if they are going to do a trillion of business at some future point.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#688

Post by ineptech »

wyager wrote: post #665
ineptech wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that hasn't happened yet is "speculative" I guess, but in this context speculative means you bought it because you think you can sell it for more tomorrow, as opposed to buying it for its intrinsic value.

Right, like USD, except replace "for more" with "not too much less".

Ah, I think I see the misunderstanding now. I argued that cryptocurrency is only speculative, and hence unlike a currency which has other uses. I did not argue the inverse (that currency only has other uses, and is not speculative).

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#689

Post by CTDOCodebases »

horsawlarway wrote: post #684
CTDOCodebases wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Now what? Fill me in on how we resolve this situation in your mind, once we've reached this point." In the example you gave whether we chose to transact in cash, wire-transfer or bitcoin the result would be the same. I would have to rely on layers, civil or criminal courts, police, insurance companies, debt collectors, thugs or myself to physically retrieve the funds (or equivalent) if possible. If that was not poss…

> Personally I think if bitcoin doesn't overcome some of its hurdles soon it will probably just turn into a form of the existing banking network through legislation. Ok - I think we're pretty closely aligned here. I'm further along that trajectory than you, mainly because I think this isn't really an optional outcome that might be avoided, but rather the only functional end state of a currency: The currency is only a…

"The currency is only as good as the government that mediates its exchange."

That's an interesting way to conceptualise it but I see it from a different broader perspective: A government is only as strong as its ability to issue/acquire meaningful amounts of a valued currency.

Anything that negatively affects these activities will be killed or subjugated to contribute towards them. Bitcoin in its intended form is detrimental to both of these activities so it will be sabotaged by governments one way or another until it is not.

Bitcoin has unique properties that drive it's adoption but all these properties can be diminished or undermined by laws.

"Which means the original intent of crypto only works in this honeymoon period"

If Bitcoin had managed to gain widespread adoption and a large enough percentage of its users held their private keys then it would have been too difficult and unfavourable for governments to start attacking it.

The unsolved technical issues hindered adoption so Bitcoin has been relegated to a volatile store of value giving government the time to realise the threat and act accordingly. Regardless of how unreasonable, harsh or onerous a set of laws are they can be effectively implemented if the portion and power of people they affect is small enough.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#690

Post by betwixthewires »

horsawlarway wrote: post #675
betwixthewires wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) generate a private key, 2) move it to the private key. When you're ready to spend it, spend it. Those places where you were looking to buy cannabis have escrow services, at the time you'd have had to trust the platform only upon purchase, nowadays multisig escrow is standard, which requires significantly less trust in a single party.

Move what to the private key? How do I get those coins in the first place?

Move the bitcoin to your brigade key.

However you can.

Any time you make a purchase, of anything, you're trusting the seller. Leaving it in their custody is where you screw up. Imagine you bought bitcoin from me, but then asked me to hang on to it for you for free. Or a car. Or anything. It's absurd.

Post reply on HN