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Why Carbon Taxes Work

timharford.com

11–20 of 107 posts

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#11

I agree that externalities should be priced in - but I wonder if in practice Governments would end up footing the bill via subsidies. For example, look at what happened in France with the fuel tax rise which lead to the “gilets jaunes” protests. If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and can continue pol…

The solution here is a payout of (most of) the taxes equally for every citizen and also use some of it for special groups (exceptions) that can't deal with even that (realistically). This is called a dividend: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#12

I agree that externalities should be priced in - but I wonder if in practice Governments would end up footing the bill via subsidies. For example, look at what happened in France with the fuel tax rise which lead to the “gilets jaunes” protests. If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and can continue pol…

Price of gas in France this week EUR 1.650/l ($7.018/gallon)

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#13

Carbon Taxes work because the market can't solve a problem it doesn't have a price for. Knowing the word "externality" is all you need to know. In the Adam Smith/Ayn Rand fantasy of money and the invisible hand, markets are a form of Artificial Intelligence. The fantasy is this AI can run the markets better than any centralized authority. Even if we assume that's true right now the AI has no price for carbon, can't t…

> The fantasy is this AI can run the markets better than any centralized authority.

I agree with a literal reading of your comment, but will just point out that the wealthy countries all tend to be the ones that let the market do its thing though. We've got a lot of examples now of authoritarian vs free market (the Koreas, Germanys and China pre- and post- Deng Xiaoping leap to mind). People routinely do better when they control their own destiny rather than strong central authorities.

If we pick which end of the spectrum is more likely to keep people fed, the answer is pretty much always the intelligence of a free market will do the best job. Starvation tends to be isolated. This is something that central authorities don't do so well, and that has been tested out quite a few times in practice now. I'm still mildly amazed that the continued and ongoing failures of political leadership for decades hasn't made an obvious dent in the number of people wanting the politicians to be in charge. Politicians are popular, not competent. Markets are really good at putting competent but unpopular people in charge which is a better strategy.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#14

Global warming is a global problem. While carbon tax would be levied locally, creating incentives to just shift production to low or no tax locations. Just as harmonisation over Cororate Tax is finally emerging, similar cross-border agreements should be needed for a Carbon Tax.

EU is making carbon tariffs to prevent exporting emissions to avoid paying for carbon emissions outside EU Emissions Trading System.

Carbon tariffs are essential feature of any functioning system. Either countries enter agreement where they harmonize their carbon trade/tariff or there will be tariff.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#15

I agree that externalities should be priced in - but I wonder if in practice Governments would end up footing the bill via subsidies. For example, look at what happened in France with the fuel tax rise which lead to the “gilets jaunes” protests. If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and can continue pol…

Is it even possible to make a CO2 tax that is not regressive?

The purpose of a CO2 tax is reduce emissions and a lot of emissions are not caused by luxury products and services but simple stuff like growing food or driving to work.

Increasing the price of fuel to the point where people switch to biking to work would be very successful from a climate standpoint but extremely unpopular.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#16
post #9

Global warming is a global problem. While carbon tax would be levied locally, creating incentives to just shift production to low or no tax locations. Just as harmonisation over Cororate Tax is finally emerging, similar cross-border agreements should be needed for a Carbon Tax.

it's complicated, but could tariffs help?

Tariffs might help in one respect. But they lack the market-driven simplicity and transparency which were the principal benefits of the carbon tax mentioned in the article.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#17

I agree that externalities should be priced in - but I wonder if in practice Governments would end up footing the bill via subsidies. For example, look at what happened in France with the fuel tax rise which lead to the “gilets jaunes” protests. If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and can continue pol…

> For example, look at what happened in France with the fuel tax rise which lead to the “gilets jaunes” protests.

I think people actually underestimate the effect of a carbon tax. The tax has to be extreme enough that it changes behaviour in the real wold, and something like 70-80% of energy comes from fossil fuels.

If people aren't near to rioting because their lifestyle is being forced to change then the tax isn't doing anything. It isn't going to look like cheerful.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#18

Global warming is a global problem. While carbon tax would be levied locally, creating incentives to just shift production to low or no tax locations. Just as harmonisation over Cororate Tax is finally emerging, similar cross-border agreements should be needed for a Carbon Tax.

Which is why mechanisms like carbon tariffs on imports are being designed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mecha...

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#19
Carbon taxes only work if they are applied universally worldwide.

If a carbon tax is applied in just one country, then people are rewarded for shifting carbon intensive activities to another country.

There also needs to be a clear answer to 'who should receive the carbon tax revenue?'. If countries receive the revenue, they have an incentive to try to attract carbon intensive industries to collect revenue from them.

The only real solution is a worldwide tax paid by countries to something like the world Bank. Each country could then tax their citizens equally.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#20
Another tax on the middle class, because they don't have enough of a fiscal burden already, in the goods they need, in paying gas when they drive to work (no, not everyone has a very green public transportation that gets them to work in an efficient fashion).

Do these people even know the carbon footprint of manufacturing a solar panel or a wind mill for their "green" energy?

I do agree that products should be manufactured locally, but that has nothing to do with the environment.

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