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Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

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31–40 of 349 posts

Re: Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

#31
post #11

I actually wondered why the industrial revolution didn't happen in China, great to see one possible explanation menioned in the article [1]. Does anybody know other theories about this? [1] https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2017/03/book3.htm

Personal opinion: same reason why it didn't take off in ancient Greece (steam engine was invented back then) , no shortage of cheap labor.

There’s an argument to be made that the Black Death broke Europe (or especially Britain) out of a local minimum, by killing off labor. This reduced the necessary rate of return to physical capital and innovation. (Why invest in an iron plow, when you can just set more serfs to the task with wooden ones?) and ultimately this planted the seeds of the industrial revolution.

Re: Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

#32
That even though we evolved as ruthless replication machines, we’ve somehow risen out of the muck and we currently find ourselves running cultural software that’s way out of sync with what game theory would dictate, and perhaps we can seize the moment and build a civilization that can tame the brutal dynamics that created us.

This. Our scientific understanding on how humans cooperate to not simply feed each other, but prosper with endless creative opportunities of cultivation, demonstrates we are at a tipping point to potentially permanently limit the recurrence of violence inter-generationally. Think of it as reversing unjust hereditary trauma. So many humans being born now see a path to their own prosperity, this century will be remembered as leaving the Planet of the Apes behind.

Re: Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

#33
post #23
post #13

>That even though the turn humans made from hunter-gatherer bands into agriculture pretty clearly made life worse, it eventually led to the industrial revolution Which also made life worse to begin with. Without the enclosure movement depriving peasants of their land and pushing them to work in the factories in horrendous conditions for pitiful pay it likely wouldnt have happened. Though I'm pretty thankful for the w…

I would like to see evidence, that people were pushed into the factories. I was under the impression, that many went into the factories, because working in agriculture was not easy, as machines were not common. And once factories were there, humans improved working conditions there. While in agriculture, well, way more difficult to do, as the work had to be done.

Google "The Enclosures". In Britain people had their right to subsist off common land removed by Parliament[1].

You can argue that the move from agriculture to industry, from countryside to city, would have happened anyway. What is indisputable is that for many people, the possibility of subsisting in the ways they had before were systematically removed by the state (at the time under the complete control of the property-owning classes).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure#Parliamentary_Inclos...

Re: Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

#34
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to see evidence, that people were pushed into the factories. I was under the impression, that many went into the factories, because working in agriculture was not easy, as machines were not common. And once factories were there, humans improved working conditions there. While in agriculture, well, way more difficult to do, as the work had to be done.

In seeing what has recently happened in China, I would agree. A gigantic migration has occurred in the past few decades where Chinese peasants moved from rural areas to the cities to work in factories. I thought for a long time "Why would so many people do this? This factory conditions are quite horrible, or at least the definition of soul-crushing monotony. I watched a pretty good documentary about this, and the ans…

Opportunity, yes, it describes it pretty well.

I also have seen friends from east europe leaving their home countries for opportunity in the west, even when judging from my warm, cosy, settled place, i thought, that their jobs were crappy. But it was opportunity for them.

And now they also judge from their warm, cosy, settled place. and try to make working conditions better for for their fellows.

Re: Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

#36
post #29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to see evidence, that people were pushed into the factories. I was under the impression, that many went into the factories, because working in agriculture was not easy, as machines were not common. And once factories were there, humans improved working conditions there. While in agriculture, well, way more difficult to do, as the work had to be done.

It depends on your definition of "pushed" or "forced". People often migrated from country to city for economic reasons. It was the only way to make a living for many. Others simply wanted to make more money or take advantage of other opportunities. You might say economic circumstances forced them to give up agriculture for factory work.

I agree. Or as someone above said, it created opportunity.

Re: Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

#38
post #14

I like this more unusual list of things to be grateful for, as it complements well what one is usually reminded to be grateful for. I'd like a more fundamental point there, though: Gratefulness seems to be primarily a ternary operator: " is grateful to for ." (like "a ? b : c" in C). That second SOMEONE is the one that the being grateful is directed at, as they are responsible for things being the way they are. (Bein…

> Does that not mean that every grateful person acknowledges God's existence, at least implicitly?

No. It means that the emotion of gratefulness isn't always a simple reduction to what you have there. Similarly, I think thwave who replied to you is also wrong. The emotion doesn't have to always follow such a simplified framework or be legibly caused. Of course it has to have some causal chain, but I think the legibility could be as opaque as "X is grateful for Y because Z suggested that maybe they should be" where Z didn't have anything to do with Y, Y doesn't necessarily do much for X, and so on. It doesn't make the emotion of gratefulness any less valid. I expect the ways the emotion could come about is varied enough to avoid these simplifications.

Re: Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

#39

That even though we evolved as ruthless replication machines, we’ve somehow risen out of the muck and we currently find ourselves running cultural software that’s way out of sync with what game theory would dictate, and perhaps we can seize the moment and build a civilization that can tame the brutal dynamics that created us. This. Our scientific understanding on how humans cooperate to not simply feed each other, bu…

??

I feel quite the opposite. Game theory helps understand why people act, & it let's you reverse engineer what they really value, as opposed to what they claim to value

It's like saying physics has been conquered because airplanes should fall out of the sky. No, your existing notion was flawed, but reality didn't change

People don't act towards incentives because of game theory, it's that game theory models their incentives. If you're acting differently, it means you've built a different incentive system

This is important because it means game theory can be used to construct incentives to guide corporate behavior (ie we can avoid tragedy of the commons by forcing externalities to be accounted for, rather than left for the people), but pleas that corporations will act for the incentive of moral goodness is only a method to fool public debate into letting the tragedy go on. Because it's in the corporate interest to not pay for their externalities

Maybe we're getting at the same thing, & I'm just picking up too much of a "shed thy mathematical yolk" vibe

Re: Underrated Reasons to Be Thankful

#40
post #23
post #13

>That even though the turn humans made from hunter-gatherer bands into agriculture pretty clearly made life worse, it eventually led to the industrial revolution Which also made life worse to begin with. Without the enclosure movement depriving peasants of their land and pushing them to work in the factories in horrendous conditions for pitiful pay it likely wouldnt have happened. Though I'm pretty thankful for the w…

I would like to see evidence, that people were pushed into the factories. I was under the impression, that many went into the factories, because working in agriculture was not easy, as machines were not common. And once factories were there, humans improved working conditions there. While in agriculture, well, way more difficult to do, as the work had to be done.

The story is complex. There aren't really no "gimme evidence" answers to these kinds of issues. A lot of people over centuries in many countries give you a lot if stories.

One major factor was population growth. This was due to the coming of American crops (corn, potatoes, etc) and the green revolution (fertilizers, machinery, etc.).

Another major factor (say in Ireland, where I'm from) was a change in the social-political system. There was a shift from old the old lordship order to a more modern landlord order. Relationships (rights, obligations) between lords/landlords and the landed an unlanded peasantry... Today we might call it rural unemployment and/or a small farm debt crisis. The latter half of this change is known in Ireland as "the land wars."

There were also "pull" factors. These are more complicated, because they do involve choice. Cities offered a lot of hope. You might do very well in a city. Many did poorly though, and food/sanitation was often worse. A lot of the migration was (for example) adolescents sent to work as domestic servants... so thinking in terms of "homo economicus" is best tempered with some visualisations... say Oliver Twist.

Similar things happen today in developing economies. Rural unemployment and stagnation. Cities that offer shiny opportunities in a game with few winners and many losers. Hence urban slums, 80 hr workweeks, etc.

Working conditions in factories was also a 200+ year process. Unions played a big role. Politics played a big role. Revolutions and fear of revolutions played a big role. In Ireland, Soviet and pre-soviet revolutions were the threat that catalyzed land and labour reforma immediately before independence from the UK and after it. The Irish independence war was contemporary to the Russian Revolution, so the politics were naturally intertwined.

For the most part, material conditions for the poor were a lot worse in the cities for most of the industrial era(s). Education was better and people became more worldly in cities. Rural peasantry tends to be culturally stagnant by default. Marx, in his day, saw this migration as the preceding factor to revolution. He was snobbishly dismissive of peasants' ability to evolve culturally, so revolution had to wait until a generation or two was seasoned by city life.

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