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As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

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Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#211

Post by rayiner »

wolverine876 wrote: post #110
lr4444lr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The books being on the school library or on classroom shelves connotes that the educational custodians of our children, who have literal and legal responsibility for their safety and well being on multiple levels, have approved them. Not so much to promote every idea they contain, but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development. What kinds of i…

We want the kids to use their freedom and free will, and to think for themselves - even or especially when it challenges the adults - and to learn how to do that. It's an essential skill to a democracy (and a free market), and to teach them freedom for all by giving them freedom, instead of teaching them that people should be sheparded. There are limits to what we want middle schoolers exposed to, but I think my appr…

> We want the kids to use their freedom and free will, and to think for themselves

Says who? The cultures who focus on “freedom” for kids are literally being replaced by the ones that socialize their kids to do what they’re supposed to do.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#212

Post by klyrs »

Cpoll wrote: post #154
pram wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having personally read some of Rand’s fiction as a teen (from my high school library no less!) I think you’d be hard pressed to find a reason to “ban” them. The narrative in Anthem, for example, is so hilariously over the top I’m not sure what the argument would be. It’s a Pol Pot “Year Zero” style civilization, and the randian superman subverts the established collectivist order by single handedly reinventing the li…

I really had Atlas Shrugged in mind, which is convincing enough to regularly show up on Republican booklists (and AFAIR at least one Supreme Court judge) and has all sorts of (my opinion) problematic views on ethical egoism and the like. > hilariously over the top These days I'm not sure anything can be so over-the-top that no-one will take it seriously.

While I didn't start this with the inclination to ban Ayn Rand, I think your first paragraph has convinced me that her writings should be in a library. If you think that her worldview is ethically bankrupt (and, fwiw, so do I), how do you expect the next generation of scholars to rebut that worldview, without being intimately familiar with it? If you think that a work should be made unavailable just because it's popular with people you are politically opposed to (and fwiw, so am I) then I strongly disagree, state censorship on political grounds is utterly intolerable. It's also completely untenable. Forbidden fruit is a siren song, and the article is specifically about people providing online workarounds to brick and mortar censorshop.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#213

Post by baryphonic »

kvathupo wrote: post #125
lr4444lr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The books being on the school library or on classroom shelves connotes that the educational custodians of our children, who have literal and legal responsibility for their safety and well being on multiple levels, have approved them. Not so much to promote every idea they contain, but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development. What kinds of i…

From the Texas legislator's proposed list of banned books, I fail to see why books such as "Bioethics Beyond the Headlines" or "V for Vendetta" should be banned. Indeed, it does concern me that much of the novels are fictional works portraying the LGBT experience. I can't imagine how alienating it must be to students of that group. As an aside, I find it amusing that Shakespeare is never banned on the grounds of sexu…

I, for one, was too busy hanging my bugle in it's invisible baldric during high school English. Or making the beast with two backs.

Oh, wait.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#214

Post by analog31 »

oliv__ wrote: post #200
analog31 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think even Rand was aware of its limitation, which is why the book has an essentially magical ending -- the heroine arrives in utopia by accident when her plane crashes there. But having to reveal the actual process of getting there is precisely the failure of utopian ideologies.

What? Her landing in "utopia" is not nearly close to the ending, nor is it magical: at all times the heroine has the option to voluntarily join this utopia and she consciously chooses to remain in the "outside world" to fight its demise. And she doesn't magically crash there, the actual process of her getting there is narrated in what is probably a good 30 pages. Using an analogy from a false representation of the pl…

Admittedly, I read it a long time ago, as a teenager, and it didn't resonate with anything in my own experience. I would certainly defer to your analysis.

Did I imagine the plane crash, or mix it up with some other book?

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#215

Post by wolverine876 »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #199
wolverine876 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it have to do with homeless people? I thought we were talking about school libraries, which generally don't have adult visitors? Also, do you have anything to back up yet another ugly stereotype about groups of people who are 'other'?

It wasn’t a good comment, but will confirm sketchy things happening at libraries in our area. Pretending they don’t happen, or being upset at their mention is not helpful either.

> Pretending they don’t happen, or being upset at their mention is not helpful either.

Is that happening?

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#216

Post by wolverine876 »

rayiner wrote: post #211
wolverine876 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We want the kids to use their freedom and free will, and to think for themselves - even or especially when it challenges the adults - and to learn how to do that. It's an essential skill to a democracy (and a free market), and to teach them freedom for all by giving them freedom, instead of teaching them that people should be sheparded. There are limits to what we want middle schoolers exposed to, but I think my appr…

> We want the kids to use their freedom and free will, and to think for themselves Says who? The cultures who focus on “freedom” for kids are literally being replaced by the ones that socialize their kids to do what they’re supposed to do.

What 'cultures' are you talking about? By far the most successful in human history have been modern democratic cultures which, very broadly speaking, focus on freedom.

But regardless, the kids should grow into free adults. It's self-evident, as Jefferson said and as much of the world has held to be true for centuries now (again to great success). Are you volunteering to give up your freedom? Then I'll take you up on that and say you may not post such comments (in case anyone is confused, I'm not actually telling the parent what to do).

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#218

Post by BearsAreCool »

rayiner wrote: post #210
kvathupo wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the Texas legislator's proposed list of banned books, I fail to see why books such as "Bioethics Beyond the Headlines" or "V for Vendetta" should be banned. Indeed, it does concern me that much of the novels are fictional works portraying the LGBT experience. I can't imagine how alienating it must be to students of that group. As an aside, I find it amusing that Shakespeare is never banned on the grounds of sexu…

To be clear, we’re talking about books that have graphic images of sex. They wouldn’t be appropriate even if they involved straight sex. Don’t use LGBT acceptance to promote sexualization of minors.

This is an easy excuse but one I find hard to believe as being at all legitimate. Out of all the things that lead to promoting sexualization of minors I highly doubt that anyone is going to look back on their chidlhood and blame a book. I also can't help but wonder if I was somehow super sexualized as a high schooler or not. Comments like this and people talking about banning books for high schoolers makes me wonder if somehow I'm the freak. Everyone I knew when I was that age had graphic (misconception filled) images of sex already, actual pornography was pretty easy to access. I almost wish I had instead gotten this from a book, maybe there would've been less damaging misconceptions.

That said, I've been trying to find an example of a book in the "book ban" discussion that contains problematic graphic sex content. I've tried looking and so far everything has turned up pretty empty.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#219

Post by pmontra »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #187
pmontra wrote: post #162

> material that may cause discomfort to readers. The world is going to discomfort them more often than not so they better train also by reading all kind of books or competitors (in the broadest possible meaning) will eat them alive while they rest inside a comfortable bubble.

Unless they scream loud enough, and the world adapts to a few idiots. eg: jazz hands instead of clapping

I didn't know about jazz hands https://abcnews.go.com/International/universitys-move-replac... (2018)

Did they actually adopt the rule nationwide or was it discarded?

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#220

Post by aspenmayer »

ffggvv wrote: post #175
CountDrewku wrote: post #63

k-12 students are not adults. We ban and censor all sorts of things for the the underage crowd, look up CIPA. There are borderline pedophilia books available at school libraries. I've also seen several examples of incredibly racist CRT books in classrooms. I don't think young kids should have unfettered access to this stuff. They're not able to process it correctly. If communities are saying they do not want this is…

not to mention the same people in a huff over this are burning and banning dr seuss and huckleberry finn and tearing down statues of the founding fathers as racist.

Is there any debate about the founding fathers avowed racism, even under the historical standards of their time? What has changed, in the interim, is the social acceptability of racism, public or private. This shift away from racist beliefs or acts is an unqualified social good.

Of course, you’re free to belief that the founding fathers weren’t racist, but I don’t think that there is much writing by them to that effect.

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