As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective • Hacker News Board

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#191

Post by sdfhdigfhonio » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #100

quadrifoliate wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that librarians already provide a "SafeSearch" by curating material at libraries. This is more similar to if Texas tried to mandate that Google SafeSearch at libraries should now include a ban on any LGBTQ images. Contrary to what you might imagine, checking out and shelving books is not the only things librarians do – they also curate and trim material, a bit like cultivating a garden. Libraries ar…

> Libraries are a fine-tuned system that maximizes freedom of expression and ideas in a reasonably curated manner. Is there a difference between the freedom of expression of children and of adults? If so, wouldn't parents have a right to limit the freedoms of their own children according to their families moral and religious beliefs? I wonder if maybe the issue is that in a school setting, the librarians are operatin…

>If so, wouldn't parents have a right to limit the freedoms of their own children according to their families moral and religious beliefs?

I will sidestep your question main question and instead nitpick your choice of words.

Families do not have moral and religious beliefs. People have moral and religious beliefs. The fact that the parents believe something absolutely does not imply that the children believe the same or that they should believe the same.

To your main point, I generally don't care about the right of parents to make decisions for their children. Parents are entrusted with children because it appears children do best when raised by their parents. If there were evidence that children do better if they are taken from their parents at birth, I would support doing so.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#192

Post by drivers99 » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

KarlKemp wrote: post #178

lr4444lr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The books being on the school library or on classroom shelves connotes that the educational custodians of our children, who have literal and legal responsibility for their safety and well being on multiple levels, have approved them. Not so much to promote every idea they contain, but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development. What kinds of i…

I don't believe the article is denying the schools' right and responsibilities in protecting children from harm. It is just assuming as much as commonly accepted. Then, it does the same with regards to the "harmfulness" of these books. Or, more specifically, it names some books (Beloved etc) as well as concepts (health education) in a way that assumes its audience will tend to agree that these aren't harmful to child…

Sorry to highjack an unrelated comment but your previous one to Scott Adams was to the wrong Scott Adams. You thought he was the author of Dilbert and the one doing the AMA is actually a programmer of classic text adventure games. I couldn’t reply there because that comment was flagged/dead.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#193

Post by everybodyknows » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

kvathupo wrote: post #125

lr4444lr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The books being on the school library or on classroom shelves connotes that the educational custodians of our children, who have literal and legal responsibility for their safety and well being on multiple levels, have approved them. Not so much to promote every idea they contain, but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development. What kinds of i…

From the Texas legislator's proposed list of banned books, I fail to see why books such as "Bioethics Beyond the Headlines" or "V for Vendetta" should be banned. Indeed, it does concern me that much of the novels are fictional works portraying the LGBT experience. I can't imagine how alienating it must be to students of that group. As an aside, I find it amusing that Shakespeare is never banned on the grounds of sexu…

Most are couched in the slang of Shakespeare's time, an effective filter. How many high schoolers get the Nurse's ribald joke about the very young Juliet learning to "fall backwards" once she had grown older? I didn't, not at all sure our teacher got the meaning either, or if she did, then chose not to explain it ... Check out the Zeffirelli Romeo and Juliet to see it played well.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#194

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 2:47 AM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #97

quadrifoliate wrote: post #9

A lot of the other comments on here are saying that this is banning books from curricula [1]. But I would...like to see the sources for this assertion? All of the stories I have seen [1][2] say that the books are banned from the school library system . As far as I am aware, school libraries usually contain a wide range of books, not just whatever is required for the curriculum. So banning a book from a school library…

The books being on the school library or on classroom shelves connotes that the educational custodians of our children, who have literal and legal responsibility for their safety and well being on multiple levels, have approved them. Not so much to promote every idea they contain, but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development. What kinds of i…

> What kinds of ideas cross this line of appropriateness you or I may disagree on, but the point is that it exists in a school setting, which the article seems to pretty much miss altogether.

I doubt it. If you consider censorship bad then different justifications for it all add up to [justifications for banning books which can be repurposed as needed].

Reading Clive Barker, Stephen King and history books did me no harm as a pre-teen and I see no reason to believe reading more graphic things would do harm either. Plenty of people reject your argument as nonsense.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#195

Post by danielvaughn » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #188

danielvaughn wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably right, but nonetheless, the original commenter's point stands about the state having literal and legal responsibility for peoples children. It makes sense to be conservative in deciding what material to put in the school library.

> It makes sense to be conservative in deciding what material to put in the school library. It really doesn't. School is one of the best places we can have people encounter challenging idea and works for the first time. If we coddle people on school and then they are exposed to those ideas on their own (which they will be) then they have fewer resources to aid in processing those ideas and are more likely to end up c…

That’s a good formula for college, once children have become legal adults and are responsible for themselves. While they’re children, it’s up to the parents to expose them to the world.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#196

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #188

danielvaughn wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably right, but nonetheless, the original commenter's point stands about the state having literal and legal responsibility for peoples children. It makes sense to be conservative in deciding what material to put in the school library.

> It makes sense to be conservative in deciding what material to put in the school library. It really doesn't. School is one of the best places we can have people encounter challenging idea and works for the first time. If we coddle people on school and then they are exposed to those ideas on their own (which they will be) then they have fewer resources to aid in processing those ideas and are more likely to end up c…

[deleted]

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#197

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 2:55 AM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #181

naasking wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development Frankly, we have little real idea what's psychologically appropriate for kids. Consider that over 65% of papers in psychology fail replication. I would be very skeptical of anyone claiming they know what's psychologically good for anyone.

With that attitude, you might as well do away with teacher certification, mandatory training, and just give the job to anyone who passes a background check.

Not quite. There's no evidence that the training does anything so we can do away with that[1]. Set a subject matter test, hire the people who do best on the test and have them teach it. Primary school could be more obviously day care to its great improvement, like at Sudbury or deomcratic schools, or at Summerhill, where the students can do whatever they want as long as they're safe and stay on school grounds.

[1]It's easier to pick a good teacher than to train one: Familiar and new results on the correlates of teacher effectiveness

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02727...

Research highlights ▶ Majoring in education is not associated with teacher effectiveness. ▶ University attended for college is not associated with teacher effectiveness. ▶ Acquiring a master's degree is not associated with teacher effectiveness. ▶ Teachers become more effective with a few years of teaching experience. ▶ Teachers may become less effective later in their careers.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#198

Post by everybodyknows » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 2:56 AM UTC

WkndTriathlete wrote: post #122

I'll admit that the one that puzzled me was the school district that banned "Catch-22".

“I remember one day we tricked two dumb high-school girls from town into the fraternity house and made them put out for all the fellows there ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Aardvark

I read Catch-22 in high school, and that bit felt plenty disturbing at the time.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#199

Post by mixmastamyk » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #165

throwawayboise wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want them watching porn at the public library either. It ruins the experience to have to witness a homeless person jacking off at a computer station, and not something I want my taxes paying for.

What does it have to do with homeless people? I thought we were talking about school libraries, which generally don't have adult visitors? Also, do you have anything to back up yet another ugly stereotype about groups of people who are 'other'?

It wasn’t a good comment, but will confirm sketchy things happening at libraries in our area. Pretending they don’t happen, or being upset at their mention is not helpful either.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#200

Post by oliv__ » Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 3:04 AM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #180

jbay808 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm glad to have read Atlas Shrugged, although I didn't find it philosophically convincing. It would be very frustrating to not be able to read it and just be stuck wondering what the Republicans seem to cite as an important text for understanding their worldview.

I think even Rand was aware of its limitation, which is why the book has an essentially magical ending -- the heroine arrives in utopia by accident when her plane crashes there. But having to reveal the actual process of getting there is precisely the failure of utopian ideologies.

What? Her landing in "utopia" is not nearly close to the ending, nor is it magical: at all times the heroine has the option to voluntarily join this utopia and she consciously chooses to remain in the "outside world" to fight its demise.

And she doesn't magically crash there, the actual process of her getting there is narrated in what is probably a good 30 pages.

Using an analogy from a false representation of the plot to imply that the author intentionally recognizes flaws with her philosophy is definitely not the most objective review of this book, to put it nicely.

Have you even read the book?