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As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

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Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The books being on the school library or on classroom shelves connotes that the educational custodians of our children, who have literal and legal responsibility for their safety and well being on multiple levels, have approved them. Not so much to promote every idea they contain, but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development. What kinds of i…

> but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development Frankly, we have little real idea what's psychologically appropriate for kids. Consider that over 65% of papers in psychology fail replication. I would be very skeptical of anyone claiming they know what's psychologically good for anyone.

With that attitude, you might as well do away with teacher certification, mandatory training, and just give the job to anyone who passes a background check.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#182

A lot of the other comments on here are saying that this is banning books from curricula [1]. But I would...like to see the sources for this assertion? All of the stories I have seen [1][2] say that the books are banned from the school library system . As far as I am aware, school libraries usually contain a wide range of books, not just whatever is required for the curriculum. So banning a book from a school library…

I grew up in Texas, and disagreements about the harm certain content (exactly which varies) can do to society, in or out of classrooms, could become heated in a hurry.

I believe it's appropriate to err on the side of openness, and keep context in mind. That hasn't always been popular.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#183
post #145
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not a fan of Ayn Rand's philosophy I've been thinking about this lately, and I'm not sure where I stand. I'm against book burning, but I feel like there are also problems with unchecked dissemination of ideas. I think this is flawed logic in a few ways, but I'll put it down anyway: 1. Is there a difference between an undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn'…

I have never run up against problems caused by people reading too widely. I have frequently seen problems caused by people who didn't read enough.

I know what you mean by this but when I hear it leads me to be believe that written language is inefficient since a large number of people find reading, even subjects they’re somewhat interested in, boring.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#184
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly? The best is when a child can read Ayn Rand and then be in a safe enough environment where they can discuss the ideas with adults who can greatly contextualize the discussion around that piece of literature.

I'm completely in agreement. I think I danced around this in my post. The main things that bother me, in general: 1. Undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn't have sufficient experience to evaluate the validity of what they're learning). 2. Things taught non-critically. I think this even applies to the "obvious" stuff like algebra and heliocentrism. My experience…

> Undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn't have sufficient experience to evaluate the validity of what they're learning).

Ideally there would be an adult figure in all children's lives to fill this role. If nobody else, their parents or other adult figures (and yes, there are cases where there are no adults, but we can't make societal decisions on the norm based on the the edge cases).

I can't help that most the adults that complain about their children getting access to ideas they don't like are those adults that don't bother to talk to their children about their views and ideas and know to challenge them on ideas that are poorly thought out.

If you ignore your child's interests for years and then are surprised to find out they have completely opposite views from you that you disagree with, the problem is not the literature they read, it's your lack of involvement in the formation of their ideas.

If you (the general you) are involved and your child has views you disagree with but you can't provide compelling arguments to make them change their mind, at a minimum you should also be looking at your own views to see how well they stand up and not assume your own infallibility. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but don't expect that you're always right when you might be espousing the equivalent of 1+1=3 and rightly getting told to shove it.

We aren't factories pumping out clones, we're creating people, and people have their own views. The best you can do is try to help them avoid the pitfalls.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#185

k-12 students are not adults. We ban and censor all sorts of things for the the underage crowd, look up CIPA. There are borderline pedophilia books available at school libraries. I've also seen several examples of incredibly racist CRT books in classrooms. I don't think young kids should have unfettered access to this stuff. They're not able to process it correctly. If communities are saying they do not want this is…

"I've also seen several examples of incredibly racist CRT books in classrooms." Can you list some examples?

Yes, please list. Just a couple will do.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#186
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody’s calling for banning books. They are calling for not using certain books in curriculum, which is very different and not allowing certain books is necessary for any school system. From the other day on NPR: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/11/1054798508/when-schools-ban-b... > Texas Gov. Greg Abbott joined Krause's efforts this week, sending his own letter to the Texas Education Agency asking it and other agencie…

Well then, again, would you want a flat-earther science manual in the school library? Schools exercising discretion is not 1940s Germany book bans and the two are not comparable.

> would you want a flat-earther science manual in the school library

Classified correctly and with sufficient material so that this doesn't look like a gift shop at Arc Encounter, yes.

Under the DDS, that would be 525.1 ( https://www.librarything.com/mds/525.1 )

Under the LCC that is QB275-343 ( https://www.librarything.com/lcc/QB275-343 )

Note that this is right next to books such as "ANTIGRAVITY PROPULSION: Human or Alien Technologies?" that has a review of:

> This book includes never before mentioned accounts of popular UFO topics like Area 51, Roswell and alien abduction claims. Also subjects such as Nazi and Japanese antigravity experiments and rare theories involving quantum physics and lost civilizations of the ancients.

> The book is well written and researched. I found the photos and (photos) of articles intriguing, compelling, shocking and last, thought provoking. I was never one to believe in aliens, UFO's or anything of that nature.

> But after reading this, I am open minded and am beginning to wonder how much has been kept secret from society. It now has crossed my mind that there very well is truth in this theory, and the possibility of a government cover up seems more probable than improbable.

> I highly recommend ANTIGRAVITY PROPULSION: Human or Alien Technologies? to those who are curious about the unexplained (Aliens, UFO's, cover-ups)and science. A definite 5 star read! I feel should be on everyone's TBR list.

I am completely ok with a book on UFOs, flat earth, or a technical manual for drones disguised as birds being find in a library as long as the library is able to remain impartial on its collection.

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How can we expect to teach children skills in critical thinking if only a particular group's orthodoxy is available?

If the answer to that is "we aren't expecting to teach critical thinking" then I would contend that this is what is setting school systems to fail - not poor teachers or overpaid administrators.

If someone is to utter "both sides are to blame" then it is important that students learning about this and seeking context of both sides have the material available to them in a manner that is allowed to present both sides without judgement - such as a library.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#187

> material that may cause discomfort to readers. The world is going to discomfort them more often than not so they better train also by reading all kind of books or competitors (in the broadest possible meaning) will eat them alive while they rest inside a comfortable bubble.

Unless they scream loud enough, and the world adapts to a few idiots.

eg: jazz hands instead of clapping

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at least that they express things in a way that is psychologically appropriate for kids at their level of development Frankly, we have little real idea what's psychologically appropriate for kids. Consider that over 65% of papers in psychology fail replication. I would be very skeptical of anyone claiming they know what's psychologically good for anyone.

You're probably right, but nonetheless, the original commenter's point stands about the state having literal and legal responsibility for peoples children. It makes sense to be conservative in deciding what material to put in the school library.

> It makes sense to be conservative in deciding what material to put in the school library.

It really doesn't. School is one of the best places we can have people encounter challenging idea and works for the first time. If we coddle people on school and then they are exposed to those ideas on their own (which they will be) then they have fewer resources to aid in processing those ideas and are more likely to end up confused and misinformed.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#189

For everyone arguing about how the library system is being censored with this, I would like to remind people that since 2000, all libraries (including non-school libraries) have the internet censored with (almost always) Google SafeSearch locked on and many websites (particularly porn but there are others) blocked. And it's federal law. https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/childrens-internet-prot... Is this censorshi…

This is a pretty silly argument. That is about blocking pornography. I don't think anyone believes school libraries should have a collection of Hustler. (Maybe they should have a collection of Playboy, though. I cited them in a paper or two.)

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#190
post #113

The “Banned Books” movement is clearly only about any books that have faced even minor protest from “the other side” of the political spectrum. They frame the censorship debate in terms of provocative, but otherwise meaningless fiction. Real censorship of factual and relevant information exists today, and they support it.

Censorship of what "factual and relevant information"? Can you provide a concrete example?
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