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As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

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Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#131

Post by shkkmo »

Cpoll wrote: post #126
quadrifoliate wrote: post #9

A lot of the other comments on here are saying that this is banning books from curricula [1]. But I would...like to see the sources for this assertion? All of the stories I have seen [1][2] say that the books are banned from the school library system . As far as I am aware, school libraries usually contain a wide range of books, not just whatever is required for the curriculum. So banning a book from a school library…

> I am not a fan of Ayn Rand's philosophy I've been thinking about this lately, and I'm not sure where I stand. I'm against book burning, but I feel like there are also problems with unchecked dissemination of ideas. I think this is flawed logic in a few ways, but I'll put it down anyway: 1. Is there a difference between an undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn'…

How do you teach students critical thinking if the very works that require critical thinking are not available to these kids in the places where they have access to teachers?

To me if there are "dangerous ideas" that need contextualization, those are the very books that need to be in the school curriculum.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#132

Post by finite_jest »

BashiBazouk wrote: post #55

As a kid in the 70's growing up on the beach in Santa Cruz I once watched a real book burning. It was weird. Some local christian group came down a dug a huge pit. Started a bonfire and a large group of people were tossing in books and records. When I was much older I realized with all the melted records that must have really polluted that section of the beach...

Real book burning still do happen today: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/book-burning-at-ontario...

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#133

Post by Cpoll »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #128
Cpoll wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not a fan of Ayn Rand's philosophy I've been thinking about this lately, and I'm not sure where I stand. I'm against book burning, but I feel like there are also problems with unchecked dissemination of ideas. I think this is flawed logic in a few ways, but I'll put it down anyway: 1. Is there a difference between an undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn'…

Frankly? The best is when a child can read Ayn Rand and then be in a safe enough environment where they can discuss the ideas with adults who can greatly contextualize the discussion around that piece of literature.

I'm completely in agreement. I think I danced around this in my post. The main things that bother me, in general:

1. Undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn't have sufficient experience to evaluate the validity of what they're learning).

2. Things taught non-critically. I think this even applies to the "obvious" stuff like algebra and heliocentrism. My experience with public schooling was that there was too much rote memorization and appeal to authority and not enough "learning."

If either of those are fixed (and I think they go hand-in-hand) I don't care if the curriculum/school library has Rand, an unannotated Mein Kampf, or $insert_book_promoting_an_agenda.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#134

Post by gidam »

dang wrote: post #105
gidam wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mine is not a generic idelogical flamewar. It's an objective observation based on the History and the politics of authoritarian governments. It's sad how in 2021, in a respected website like this, facts are considered to have the same value as opinions. And if someone dont like the facts call them "ideological flames".

It was generic in the sense that we use that term here. I say that because: (1) it included nothing directly related to the specific details of the article topic, and (2) it made a grand and sweeping claim. Those are shallow, because while they come with a lot of activation energy (e.g. high indignation levels), they include very little information. Shallow statements on divisive topics are automatically flamebait. T…

Thank you for the answer, but again I’ve said that censoring books is a plot of authoritarian gov. You are considering this an ideological position while it is a fact. I am not here to troll, but be flagged as flamer for saying a fact is very disappointing for a respectful website. But I understand that people in united states have different sensitivity about truth and facts.

“Those who don’t remember history are doomed to repeat it.”

Cheers

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#135

Post by pram »

Cpoll wrote: post #126
quadrifoliate wrote: post #9

A lot of the other comments on here are saying that this is banning books from curricula [1]. But I would...like to see the sources for this assertion? All of the stories I have seen [1][2] say that the books are banned from the school library system . As far as I am aware, school libraries usually contain a wide range of books, not just whatever is required for the curriculum. So banning a book from a school library…

> I am not a fan of Ayn Rand's philosophy I've been thinking about this lately, and I'm not sure where I stand. I'm against book burning, but I feel like there are also problems with unchecked dissemination of ideas. I think this is flawed logic in a few ways, but I'll put it down anyway: 1. Is there a difference between an undiscerning student (i.e. young, impressionable, hasn't been taught critical thinking, doesn'…

Having personally read some of Rand’s fiction as a teen (from my high school library no less!) I think you’d be hard pressed to find a reason to “ban” them.

The narrative in Anthem, for example, is so hilariously over the top I’m not sure what the argument would be. It’s a Pol Pot “Year Zero” style civilization, and the randian superman subverts the established collectivist order by single handedly reinventing the lightbulb in a sewer.

Frankly anyone would be giving it more credibility than it deserves by saying it contains dangerous ideas.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#136

Post by zorpner »

CountDrewku wrote: post #63

k-12 students are not adults. We ban and censor all sorts of things for the the underage crowd, look up CIPA. There are borderline pedophilia books available at school libraries. I've also seen several examples of incredibly racist CRT books in classrooms. I don't think young kids should have unfettered access to this stuff. They're not able to process it correctly. If communities are saying they do not want this is…

> I've also seen several examples of incredibly racist CRT books in classrooms.

You mean to tell me that high-level academic critical theory is being taught to children? Please, name the books.

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#137

Post by abeppu »

With respect to the distinction between books that are part of the curriculum and books in the school library, I think it's worth raising that kids are just reading less overall over time (perhaps 2020 being an exception). The proportion of kids who are going to the library and finding something unrelated to their classwork is shrinking. I suspect that the impulse to ban books is caused by the same cultural incuriousness that ironically makes book banning less impactful than proponents would hope. This is _especially_ true for most of the books on those banned lists. Those one of the linked lists includes such barn-burner titles as "The Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine", "Medical Ethics: Moral and Legal Conflicts in Health Care", "Race and the Media in Modern America". Kids aren't casually stumbling across these in the school library and deciding they're worth perusing. If some kid _is_ reading about medical ethics in high school, I'm guessing they're gonna find information about their topics of interest regardless. There are a bunch of books about teen pregnancy and abortion -- but I'm gonna guess that most of the time the teen pregnancies don't happen because someone first read a book literally titled "Teen Pregnancy" and decided they liked it. Similarly "A Baby Doesn't Make the Man: Alternative Sources of Power and Manhood for Young Men" probably isn't actually changing teen behavior. What ever intern in some state legislator's office drummed up suggestions for books to ban must have been pretty lazy.

I'm not saying we shouldn't care about these efforts. But arguing over which books should be ignored in the library reference section is probably less important than figuring out how to get the kids to actually enjoy reading despite being raised in an environment with tiktok etc. And when you get it figured out for kids, tell me, b/c these days I mostly only get through a novel while traveling.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/feb/29/children-r...

https://openlibrary.org/collections/texas-challenged

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#138

Post by shkkmo »

jl2718 wrote: post #113

The “Banned Books” movement is clearly only about any books that have faced even minor protest from “the other side” of the political spectrum. They frame the censorship debate in terms of provocative, but otherwise meaningless fiction. Real censorship of factual and relevant information exists today, and they support it.

Who is "they" in your comment? Open Library is part of the Internet Archive which has generally been pretty effective at limiting censorship rather than promoting it..

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#139

Post by [deleted] »

Spooky23 wrote: post #116
quadrifoliate wrote: post #9

A lot of the other comments on here are saying that this is banning books from curricula [1]. But I would...like to see the sources for this assertion? All of the stories I have seen [1][2] say that the books are banned from the school library system . As far as I am aware, school libraries usually contain a wide range of books, not just whatever is required for the curriculum. So banning a book from a school library…

Local school districts frequently do this sort of thing. It sucks for the kids, but it is a good signal for you when you’re looking for a place to live, as the school board is controlled by provincial idiots.

[deleted]

Re: As calls to ban books intensify, digital librarians offer perspective

#140

Post by zorpner »

analyte123 wrote: post #3

Not going to hold my breath for Archive.org or the ALA's "curated collection" of books banned from Amazon.

In case anyone else was confused about the multiple comments on this post talking about "books banned from Amazon", it's about Amazon choosing not to sell books that characterize gender identities and sexual orientation as mental illness.
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