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The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

stephendiehl.com

331–340 of 704 posts

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#331

This particular source is extremely low quality and is motivated by the author's undisclosed competing product. I would like to see higher quality sources on the front page of hacker news one day.

> the author's undisclosed competing product Which is: http://adjoint.io "Adjoint digitises cash and settlement processes for multinational corporates."

It is a business-to-business product that doesn't seem to have anything to do with crypto.

It's not like crypto is a thread for this business.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#332
post #124

Decentralisation offers the following value over centralisation: * Control by a majority, not a minority. (democratic) * Open ecosystem that visible and able to be analysed by anyone (transparent) * Immutable (no one makes up assets without everyone knowing about it) * Fair. Same price for everyone at all times, no chance of a monopoly. Those don't exist in central systems and so the price you must pay for that is sp…

First of all decentralization is not a property solely confined to cryptocurrencies. The traditional banking system is decentralized, there are thousands of banks that are all separate entities. There is no single central bank, even central banks are not unique, every country has one. Additionally the traditional banking system and cash have a huge advantage, no global consensus is required, Iran still has a banking system much to the dismay of the American government.

> *Control by a majority, not a minority. (democratic)

It's a majority of hash power in the case of PoW and a majority of capital in the case of PoS, since hash power costs capital in both cases it's a majority of capital that has control, oh and the systems devs of course a small group that essentially decides the future of the system.

> * Open ecosystem that visible and able to be analysed by anyone (transparent)

That is not necessarily a good thing, the fact that all the transactions are public means that they can be analyzed to identify people, this is bad not for criminals that will use sophisticated anonymizing techniques. But casual users that don't know any better and maybe identified doing either illegal (buying drugs), compromising (paying for sex) or simply being associated with other known users. In the traditional banking paradigm these problems are usually circumvented by using cash, or relying on the institutions privacy guarantees when no law enforcement is involved.

> *Immutable

All these schemes while claiming to be immutable are really not, firstly the last block is always subject to being overridden by a longer chain with more blocks, thus everyone waits for multiple blocks(confirmations) before accepting a transaction as committed, secondly even if the development team / or the majority of the miners does not like a specific transaction they can always revert it, by controlling / or being the majority as was the case with the events that lead to the existence of ethereum classic. So these schemes are not really immutable, they are only immutable when a single users tokens are stolen.

As for me, I don't believe that cryptocurrencies are completely useless. I just don't see why everyone is so excited.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#334

This particular source is extremely low quality and is motivated by the author's undisclosed competing product. I would like to see higher quality sources on the front page of hacker news one day.

Thank you for sharing in detail why you think the article is so low quality. What can be stated without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating two issues with each other. One is having a decentralized currency with a fixed monetary policy. Another issue is the counterparty risk. Bitcoin is not designed to solve the counterparty risk, it's just a digital cash that has a fixed emission schedule. It can be stolen just like regular physical cash can be. Smart Contracts try to solve the counterparty risk issue, but it's just an extra layer arou…

See, I think you're disconnecting two issues which are inherently related. Fraud is not going anywhere anytime soon. If you have no proposed mechanism to reconcile fraud, I'd argue there's not any true value stored. If the proposed mechanism is "just use the existing government" then the whole house of cards in built on the back of that central authority enforcing ownership for you anyways in which case why not just…

The reason I am disconnecting those issues is that Bitcoin was never designed to solve the type of fraud you're talking about. There is no proposed mechanism to solve it, because it's outside of it's scope.

It was designed to solve a specific set of frauds related with having a central authority though: censoring people from financial system, seizing your savings from your bank account and debasing the currency for the benefit of the political elite.

Counterparty risk is real, but there are other ways to solve it, besides having a central authority that has the power to revert transactions, which comes with it's own risks.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#336
post #301

Most people on HN are rational people who look at the world in a rational way. Bitcoin and friends are not operating in a rational market, therefore we don't understand them, and most of us would probably be pretty lousy investors since we would try to make decisions rationally instead of memeing and YOLOing. But, and this is a key point, that doesn't make us right and them wrong . It's just a different kind of marke…

Are you implying that no rational person should ever buy Bitcoin? That seems a bit far-fetched, no?

At this point, considering that it's stronger than ever and it's pretty clear it's not going away, I would expect a rational person to allocate even a small percentage to it for diversification, in case they happen to be wrong on their conclusions or understanding of Bitcoin.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#337
post #101

I wish I could have discussions about cryptocurrency as a technology rather than a "get rich quick" scheme. Back in 2017 I was really excited about Ethereum and the promises of scalability not just from Vitalik B. but from other developers too. I still think that cryptocurrency could do good for the world if the issues can be resolved but for now everybody's got their eyes on the price, not the technology's horizon.

It has no use case. Zero

It has an incredibly useful case.

Uncensorable, unstoppable, unseizable, frictionless money.

Have you ever tried withdrawing all of your money from your bank? They will fight tooth and nail to stop you.

Have you ever tried sending money with a wire? Your bank may say "No" you aren't allowed to send your money to who you want. This happened to Wikileaks in 2008.

Have you ever fought with PayPal to get access to your money on their platform? They've shut down millions of legitimate accounts barring people from accessing their own money.

With cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, you are always in control of your own money because you have not deposited it into someone else's system. It's yours.

If you still call that "zero use case" I can't force you to drink the water I brought you to.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#338
post #19

I think the biggest lesson here is that people really, really love unregulated gambling. The same way they love doing drugs, making narcotics an extremely profitable business. If we don’t legalize the things our population deeply desire, the criminal elements are more than happy to step up and provide said services.

The authors example use cases about a database doing everything except crime summarizes it well. One persons crime is another persons freedom. If you rephrased it as saying, the only thing blockchains provide that a database doesn't is freedom, I think the resounding response would be: Yes.

What I think anti-crypto people object to is the freedom of others, because it represents a limit and undermines the necessary absolute and total Hobbesian sovereignty and dominion of the systems that provide them with their own status, which is based on something other than consent and desire, and when I read these objections, most of what I interpret is that implicit humiliation.

Gambling provides opportunity for people to live independent of being subordinate to an employer, as if your employees suddenly don't have to work for you, it's hard to build and scale social stability and wealth. I sympathize with the morality of reducing gambling as being appropriate for over a thousand years ago, but today? You also can't use shame to control people who can afford to walk away.

The current financial system is designed by-and-for creditors as a means of leverage over debtors, and crypto is explicitly not. The only problems of gambling are really problems with debts, and better laws limiting the power of creditors would solve that. The interests behind the criticisms are clear, but to me dressing them up and carting them around as moral is a bit much.

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#339
post #301

Most people on HN are rational people who look at the world in a rational way. Bitcoin and friends are not operating in a rational market, therefore we don't understand them, and most of us would probably be pretty lousy investors since we would try to make decisions rationally instead of memeing and YOLOing. But, and this is a key point, that doesn't make us right and them wrong . It's just a different kind of marke…

The issue is not whether a person can make money in a Ponzi scheme. We know it is possible. The issue is, is it a good idea?

Re: The Handwavy Technobabble Nothingburger of Crypto

#340
post #301

Most people on HN are rational people who look at the world in a rational way. Bitcoin and friends are not operating in a rational market, therefore we don't understand them, and most of us would probably be pretty lousy investors since we would try to make decisions rationally instead of memeing and YOLOing. But, and this is a key point, that doesn't make us right and them wrong . It's just a different kind of marke…

Rational/irrational is a vacuous distinction. Everyone has their own perspective on time and value. This doesn't address any of the OP's arguments, however.

Bitcoin is smart engineered gold. It's perfectly rational compared to the endless printing in fiat. Most engineers just accept keynesian economics because that's what they were taught.

They have a narrow world view beyond their tech expertise. I saw somebody criticize BTC because they couldn't imagine using so much energy "just to secure money". I was like what you just took for granted is perhaps society's most important need and unsolved problem.

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