(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…
Even if the lokpal bill comes and goes, the impact has already gone far beyond the concept of an ombudsman. For the first time in my memory, the urban middle class of India have been represented - as opposed to factions based on religion, caste, race and language. A new platform has been given due recognition - that of the growing, tax-paying, facebook-ing urban demographic which has never been able to dissolve its o…
History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
51–60 of 67 posts
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#52Anna Hazare is being hastily compared to Gandhi. Before this he had good credentials, i.e. was fairly well known in India, but he was just one-among-many-equals (not even first among equals) of social activists.
The positive though is that, the three most important people around him, also have got good credentials. Okay two at least (Kiran Bedi and Arvind Kejriwal). About the third - Mr. Bhushan - not much was known earlier.
Arvind Kejriwal in particular had worked very hard in the activism space, being one of the key guys behind acts such as RTI. (It may interest the HN community more, that he happens to be a product of IIT in India - the most reputable tech institution over here. )
But this sudden burst of 'I-want-results-now' sort of hyper activism. Has left an admirer like me confused at best. Confused, as to whether the good guys indeed are still on the right track. Or have broken down.
Broken down, akin to a website owner, who after years of toiling to build traffic the clean and hard way, have suddenly resorted to black hat SEO. (If the analogy is not obvious, I mean, just like dirty and unethical SEO, may be easy to build traffic. Similarly fast to death is an easy way to build frenzy. Not easy always, but easy once in a while, and this technique was being applied the first time in front of new TV media).
And just being good people and having good intentions is not enough. You have to be a lot careful with these things. As they say 'With power comes more .....'.
Want to recount an anecdote to make a point: Recently I had a reason to visit a village in northern India. I won't polish my words here - The experience was ugly. The village was very dirty. The people ultra lazy. Open drains all over the place smelling bad. People just sitting idle. Houses in the state of decay, but no body is working to rebuild them. Electricity comes only in the night, that of course is not their problem.
My family and me had planned to stay for 2 days there. But had to rush back the same day, as I could not simply just get myself to use the dirty toilet there. (Call me whatever - snobbish, unfeeling, uncaring, etc. but I am being brutally honest here)
So a thought occurred to me. That its not corruption-freedom they need now urgently. Its basic education (for their kids) and perhaps some inspiration (and some training also won't hurt) in life to get up from their haunches and start doing some work.
I may sound like a right wing capitalist here. But that's just a label, and my anon status gives me the liberty to write freely. And BTW, in general I am left leaning for various things - have followed Paul Krugman's writings for past few years. And also, I am a big fan of the Mahatma Gandhi. (I needed to say this, to give my fellow Indians, a background of where I am coming from. So before even you start getting to abusing me, please at-least bother to understand me)
On the matter of abuse, I feel sorry for Manmohan Singh our PM. People just don't have any broader perspective. And can just so easily be swayed from one side to another. Not long back - i.e. until about two years back - he was being hailed as a great person, who ushered India into liberalization of the 90s. Which allowed the GDP to become 8% from and liberated it from the Hindu growth rate of 3-4%. And allowed a great Indian middle class to emerge, etc. etc.
But now, the very same people, are just after his blood all the time. I was almost fearing that the poor guy does not get a heart attack, from so much pressure, while every body else is worried about Anna's health (no disrespect to him either).
Now on corruption: People don't even see the irony of what they are saying and supporting. In the past two years lots of scams have been uncovered - CWG & 2G-spectrum-allocation the most prominent of them.
IMO two things that were most instrumental for the uncovering were: 1) The RTI (right to information) law passed only few years back and 2) the CAG reports. Powerful personalities went to jail (still are in jail) and many others still live in fear.
So is that a good thing or a bad thing? Meaning, will people would have been better off if these were not uncovered or are people better off now that they are in fact uncovered.
The least the uncovering of these scams tells, is that the system is working. So one would expect that people will work towards empowering the current set of things (laws/institutions) which have proven that they are very effective. And not indulge in hyper-activism, the outcome of which is at best unpredictable. Even enact more laws, who is stopping.
But no sir. We want some more blood. And we want it now. So what, if the movement or agitation, call it whatever you like, shames India into looking like a Arab country. (Some lunatic journo, surely compared this with an 'Arab Spring' ... I almost heard him. )
Silent evolutionary things, are much more powerful, than a revolutionary change. The latter also can be helpful. But people leading them have to be sure. Really really sure. I honestly am still confused, at best. I still don't doubt the intentions of Kejriwal and Ms. Bedi. I hope they are guided well by their inner beings...
And did I miss an Obama like orator, to articulate the government's perspective on things.
EDIT: No disrespect to Arab countries either. My remark is only intended for the rulers (kings) of those countries, which have obviously been abusing the populace, who have now very bravely gathered the will to fight them.
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#53(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…
2. Aware about law which is about to come. This is a big deal first time people are talking about laws in details and when it comes to implementation they know how to deal with it. (In India we have "Right to Information" but very less people use it because they not fully aware even it have the simplest structure.)
3. Interested in politics - This is the root problem in India. New generation which is so called better educated than their old one is not taking much interest in politic. These kind of movement make few good leaders as other movements.
As far as my knowledge it was a biggest non-political movement in India so far.
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#54(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…
The Indian leader Mayawati has already demanded that there should be reservation for SC/ST/OBC in Lokpal members. http://www.hindustantimes.com/Maya-seeks-reservation-for-SC-... If this continues, I dont see JLB being any effective in rooting out corruption. It will end up being just another layer of bureocracy. Edit:added link
I had discussion with one of my friend in UK and stated his statement - "UK has faced riots for 15 days and India has peaceful movement for 15 days" earlier these statement used to be reverse.
Change always take time.
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#55We can at best hope that it is going to turn out well, in the end. Anna Hazare is being hastily compared to Gandhi. Before this he had good credentials, i.e. was fairly well known in India, but he was just one-among-many-equals (not even first among equals) of social activists. The positive though is that, the three most important people around him, also have got good credentials. Okay two at least (Kiran Bedi and Ar…
About the shift in perceptions about Manmohan Singh: a person who is an A player in one position may well be a C player in a different position. It is a fact that despite RTI which only affected the lower levels of the govt, the corruption on the higher levels has only increased in the last few years. The oratory you miss also affects the effectiveness of the government itself.
I think if you are interested in the subject it behoves you find out more about the what and why before sounding off confusedly on the topic. More like Kejriwal and less like Manmohan.
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#56(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…
This isn't like pork-barrel spending where the voters care a lot about ending it but care more about protecting spending in their own district. Nor is it like American-style corruption where every voter understands that money buys influence, except in the case of their own congressmen, whom they believe to be honest people who are forced to take corporate money so they can survive in Washington and do some good. That kind of corruption flows both ways: the corrupt congressman uses his power to reel in undeserved favors and unnecessary spending for his constituents. It's a quid pro quo. Americans are conflicted. I'm sure Indians are similarly conflicted about the corruption that brings services or economic growth to their districts, but they are not conflicted about paying bribes or having public property appropriated by government officials. They are also not conflicted about corrupt relationships between corporations and politicians where the politicians' constituents are the ones who get screwed. This is not a problem of incentives. This is a problem of investigation and enforcement. Do you expect citizens to punish politicians themselves, vigilante-style, on the basis of rumors that have never been investigated?
The disruption to the constitutional balance of power is something I take seriously, but the accounts of what the Lokpal Bill actually does vary widely. From my understanding, the Lokpal resembles a special prosecutor's office. It has the power and resources to investigate, and it has the power to bring cases to the courts. When it is said that various government offices are "under the purview" of the Lokpal, it just means they can be investigated and prosecuted, just like any official in the United States government can be investigated (and almost all of them can be prosecuted.)
Now, I could have been misled about what the Lokpal actually is, but I have to say that its supporters have been more specific about the limits of its powers, while the detractors have been very vague and hand-wavy. They say it sets up a new branch of government and disrupts the separation of powers, but the same was said about the United States' independent counsel (the most famous of whom was Kenneth Starr:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Counsel
I think we take it for granted in the United States that if an official is breaking the law (and not just enjoying legal corruption) that some agency, probably more than one, will have the authority, the resources, and an official mandate to investigate the crime. As far as I know, that's all the Lokpal Bill is trying to accomplish. I don't see what's wrong with that.
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#57We can at best hope that it is going to turn out well, in the end. Anna Hazare is being hastily compared to Gandhi. Before this he had good credentials, i.e. was fairly well known in India, but he was just one-among-many-equals (not even first among equals) of social activists. The positive though is that, the three most important people around him, also have got good credentials. Okay two at least (Kiran Bedi and Ar…
I'm sorry but you sound very presumptuous - you could'nt bring yourself to stay a single day in situations where people have stayed their lifetime - or clean the toilet yourself - and you presume to dictate what is best for them ? About the shift in perceptions about Manmohan Singh: a person who is an A player in one position may well be a C player in a different position. It is a fact that despite RTI which only aff…
You caught me in one of my several weaknesses (your first point). But you must at-least acknowledge that I said it myself.
Don't agree with your last para. Now you are presuming, I have not made an effort. I did not read the bill. But I made efforts - right from looking up wikipedia a few months back on 'Ombudsman' and many other things (articles/views etc.) ...
And second point in your last para: Please distinguish between ambivalence or (admission of confusion) regarding somebody else's action and accusing me of being confused. I spent 45 minutes, trying to articulate my views (it did tax my articulation capabilities) and re-read it before posting. I am not confused at all about what I am saying. I am only not sure, if what's happening is making sense in the right way. My hunch is that it does not.
EDIT: Corrected a few typos
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even if the lokpal bill comes and goes, the impact has already gone far beyond the concept of an ombudsman. For the first time in my memory, the urban middle class of India have been represented - as opposed to factions based on religion, caste, race and language. A new platform has been given due recognition - that of the growing, tax-paying, facebook-ing urban demographic which has never been able to dissolve its o…
factions based on Race in India? I think you are getting carried away with your hyperbole!
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#59As an Indian, I'm deeply interested in what's happening here right now, but I fail to see how this is useful in this forum.
Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill
#60(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…
Sometimes they turn out to harbour bad apples; but eventually those people too are discovered and removed. Recently a former manager in the National Crime Commission (a powerful anti-organised crime body) was charged, tried, convicted and imprisoned for colluding with criminals to import drugs.
The problem might be that the people with the power to appoint the guards are themselves only going to appoint their friends. It's a chicken and egg dilemma, but worth struggling with. Eventually there's a tipping point where corruption becomes the abnormality and everyone accepts independent arbitration. It can unleash enormous prosperity, which Indians deserve as much as anyone.