Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#431

Post by fortran77 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:38 PM UTC

einpoklum wrote: post #375

technobabbler wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely parallels to be drawn between the Israeli and the American conservative/right-wing/militant nationalist elements. Both countries operate as global bullies, using military force to subjugate externally and propaganda and fear of replacement to subjugate internally, heavily enhanced by the use of technology. They both have this old-guard mentality of "might makes right" hegemony, which a lot of other…

> Israel at least has a survival need; Every state has a "survival need" > it learned the (very) hard way that it has many enemies constantly seeking to destroy it. While that might be true at the level of people in the Arab East, but as far as states are concerned, that isn't actually the case. Unfortunately, repressive governments in Jordan, Egypt and elsewhere are supportive of Israel; and Lebanon and Syria are ef…

This is not relevant to the subject, and full of lies. @dang -- clean up the thread

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#432

Post by LegitShady » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #353

LegitShady wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

source? My thought is if you tried this in israel the actual intelligence apparatus would have you picked up pretty quickly and in a dark hole for as long as they wanted.

They are part of the actual intelligence apparatus, or at least former. The execs are former members of Unit 8200, the Israeli SIGINT org. And companies like their's are where former IDF SIGINT officers go after service. And their company is a major piece of Israeli diplomacy; access to their software was one of the carrots Israel has been using to push gulf state away from Iran.

So no source and no understanding that because of compulsive military service most of Israel is ex military and no intelligence agency will allow the government to be blackmailed by a private intelligence firm?

Seems like a conspiracy theorist to me.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#433

Post by grzm » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #431

einpoklum wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel at least has a survival need; Every state has a "survival need" > it learned the (very) hard way that it has many enemies constantly seeking to destroy it. While that might be true at the level of people in the Arab East, but as far as states are concerned, that isn't actually the case. Unfortunately, repressive governments in Jordan, Egypt and elsewhere are supportive of Israel; and Lebanon and Syria are ef…

This is not relevant to the subject, and full of lies. @dang -- clean up the thread

"@dang" doesn't do anything special. The most reliable way to reach the mods is to email them using the Contact link in the footer.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#434

Post by montblanc » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #419

montblanc wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be quite a blow if the 5% of Israeli government who use IPhones (IPhones aren't really popular outside the U.S) suddenly have to switch to Android. As an extreme measure I suggest blocking their itunes accounts. And no more Macbooks! Settle for some cheaper superior hardware elsewhere!

People with money, who tend to be people with power, use Apple devices.

Not really. Its a U.S thing.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#435

Post by chrisfinazzo » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

rektide wrote: post #144

chrisfinazzo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Not a lawyer, but this is the correct answer) As much as people might look at this and think Apple is being heavy-handed, it comes down to the fact that iCloud, iOS, and the App Store are their IP and they can (within legal limits) set whatever terms they please. Especially for these sorts of arrangements, it seems like a problem to me if the platform/IP owner doesn't have absolute, final discretion over what happen…

This sits so unwell with me, gives such limitless tyrannical & dictatorial control to a company. > As much as people might look at this and think Apple is being heavy-handed, it comes down to the fact that iCloud, iOS, and the App Store are their IP and they can (within legal limits) set whatever terms they please. Agreed. That's exactly what it seems like. And that sounds like immoral, unjustifiable, sickening hell.…

Put another way, I don't really have a problem with 3rd parties - or individuals who are so inclined - repairing Apple gear, but the recent moves have shown that the company would much rather deal with the small headaches of setting up and administering such a program if they can set the terms under which it happens.

Otherwise, legislators (think: US Congress) will do it for them, with disastrous results. Doing it like this means everybody gets something out of the deal: Consumers can choose the best repair option for them, Independent shops now can take Apple business and without worrying about warranties, and all of this happens in full view of the company and people who are watching them closely (Again, legislators).

It's a closed system and Apple sets the rules, but just about anyone can participate. On the whole, that seems like a net good to me.

* The same sentiment might apply to Deere as well, but I don't know enough about that particular situation to say if it would still be impractical to take a similar approach.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#436

Post by chrisfinazzo » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #344

chrisfinazzo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Not a lawyer, but this is the correct answer) As much as people might look at this and think Apple is being heavy-handed, it comes down to the fact that iCloud, iOS, and the App Store are their IP and they can (within legal limits) set whatever terms they please. Especially for these sorts of arrangements, it seems like a problem to me if the platform/IP owner doesn't have absolute, final discretion over what happen…

They can try. But that's not the same as succeeding, let's not get ahead of the lawsuit, which will likely take a long time to resolve.

Fair enough.

My issue here is that every time this kind of thing comes up, it becomes a sounding board for how (any) company has too much power...

Ever wonder why that is? The laws are written in such a way to allow it to happen, and they are more or less required to do what is in the best interest of shareholders.

If this doesn't suit you, bug your Congressperson to work to change the laws - just don't take a page from Newt Gingrich and burn the house down.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#437

Post by seanhunter » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

FridayoLeary wrote: post #217

voxic11 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are just using the EULA as the basis for claiming jurisdiction. They are actually suing not to stop reverse engineering but rather to recover damages incurred by unlawful business practices. Basically their argument is that: 0) The defendant's can be sued under California law because they accepted the EULA. 1) California law makes businesses liable for damages incurred by their unlawful business practices. 2) Bu…

>0) The defendant's can be sued under California law because they accepted the EULA The Court has personal jurisdiction over Defendants because, on information and belief, they created more than one hundred Apple IDs to carry out their attacks and also agreed to Apple’s iCloud Terms and Conditions (“iCloud Terms”), including a mandatory and enforceable forum selection and exclusive jurisdiction clause that constitute…

That's not how it works.

When they say "No your honor" they would then have a charge of perjury added to the other charges. The apple lawyer doesn't say "Then how did you gain access to my client's services?" (because litigation 101 teaches you never ask a question you don't know the answer to).

...the lawyer enters into evidence the logs showing you accepting the EULA.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#438

Post by XnoiVeX » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

rendaw wrote: post #237

TillE wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nerds always want to interpret the law in some strict pedantic fashion, but in practice this is almost never how it works. Law is not applied stupidly or mechanically, you can't fashion yourself some ad hoc workaround unless you're extremely certain about what you're doing, preferably with a mountain of precedent behind you.

"NSO can be sued under California law because they accepted the EULA" seems like a mechanical, strict, pedantic application of law though.

That's how law works.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#439

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

evgen wrote: post #409

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nerds always want the law to be consistent. Lawyers are Machiavellian professionals trained in getting it to say "heads I win tails you lose" for their clients, and often succeed. That doesn't mean the nerds are wrong to want what they want.

No, it is just that most nerds are too ignorant to understand how law works and its purpose and mechanisms. They expect it to be some sort of API spec that can be mechanically manipulated. Their own efforts at such intellectual mechanics are nothing but a trail of tears and failure, with bug after bug making a mockery of any claim they have about the benefits of such a system. Law has had millennia to work out the ki…

> No, it is just that most nerds are too ignorant to understand how law works and its purpose and mechanisms.

People have a pretty good idea of its mechanisms.

Powerful people break laws that are clear enough and then don't go to jail because of "prosecutorial discretion" or Johnnie Cochran or retroactive telecoms immunity for illegal mass surveillance.

Powerless people break laws that are ambiguous, or most people don't even know exist, or people know exist but they're only enforced against the nameless and poor, and the US has the largest prison population in the world.

This outcome is your great victory for "millennia to work out the kinks in the system and develop practices that are robust in the face of adversarial attack by actual smart people"?

> trail of tears

Really?

> coders can't seem to keep basic services operating in ideal conditions and yet you expect anyone to look to this group when it comes to actual life and death decisions?

We already have code running when it comes to actual life and death decisions. There is code running in aircraft and heart bypass machines, and it works, because then people care that it works. Nobody cares enough that some ad tracking code is perfectly reliable and efficient, so it isn't.

You're also asking for a double standard. The OpenBSD people do a nice job on OpenSSH. It's pretty good, not perfect. There have been vulnerabilities in even that. Then they get patched.

But you can't possibly be claiming that there are no "vulnerabilities" in the law. If that was the case then why do they have to keep passing new ones every year? The ask isn't that it never change, it's that it be changed by the legislature prospectively instead of being in a constant state of superposition until it's resolved by a court ex post facto.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#440

Post by throw10920 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #325

fortran77 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"target them"? What are you proposing?

Refuse to hire them, like I do for Facebook, Microsoft, and Raytheon/Booz/etc staff. Blog about their names and the work they do and their employer, so anyone searching for them on Google knows that they are military-industrial complex scumbags.

> Blog about their names and the work they do

This is, uh, rather malicious, and definitely undemocratic. Let's not have any of that, please.