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Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
421–430 of 477 posts
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#422Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm not a legal expert but shouldn't that be stupidly easy to deny? Anything is easy to deny . Denial isn't sufficient to win the point. > We can fully prove our claims. Saying “we can fully prove our claims” is stupid easy. Being able to is harder. > This is assuming NSO were far- sighted enough to actually create such a paper trail But they probably weren't, because they didn't anticipate being sued in California…
The burden of proof should fall on Apple in an ideal world. Maybe a court ruling that one stupid checkbox at the end of a digital 10,000 word document isn't sufficient proof might be a good idea?
It does, but this is what the discovery process is for. If NSO wants to claim that they somehow got these accounts without agreeing to the EULA process themselves, Apple is going to request and the judge is going to approve a discovery request for NSO to turn over every record they have related to the accounts, when and how they were obtained, and who obtained them for NSO. If NSO wants to pretend that they have no such records, didn’t get the accounts themselves, and don’t know what third party obtained them, they’re going to get a very skeptical response from the judge, and they’re probably going to have to send a bunch of employees to go make statements that in addition to not having any records, none of them remember how this happened either. That’s probably the point at which Apple reveals that really they know via IP addresses or geolocation or something that all of the accounts were registered in an office building occupied by NSO, and then NSO gets sanctioned to hell and a bunch of employees are revealed to have lied in their testimony. That’s an absolute nightmare scenario for NSO.
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#423Earlier quoted context omitted.
>This sits so unwell with me, gives such limitless tyrannical & dictatorial control to a company. Do you think Apple could get some "hackers" extradited if they don't live in the US? Its that old adage, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and some country's like Russia will point blank refuse extradition to the US as will other countries. Any business can put what they like in their terms and condition…
Personally, generally I could not be more uninterested in the international legal politics behind this all. None of it is at all progressive, none of it speaks to what humanity can or could do. It's the most anodyne, boring, real world, un-possible way to take the discussion. It's mired in endless fun-house mirrors of shit-show politics that hasn't wont and can't figure out how to adapt. I can't think of a single nat…
In a way, we are just witnessing and commenting on the survival needs and actions of different entities, beit a country, laws, finance, companys, groups, religions or individuals. They all have different needs for their survival and this is just one story on one entity and the interactions of those involved like the courts, law, Apple, NSO, The Press, consumers or users, Judges, Govts, administrations, etc etc.
AFAIK there is not a country on this planet that does not believe in sky faeries in one form or another (?Antarctica?), likewise we generally all eat the same things, with minor regional differences, similar practices and needs so until you can get the main users ie humans to increase their intelligence and knowledge, it would seem this planet is stuck in a slowly evolving pattern of operation which still has various self destruct risks, some easily quantifiable others not. The problem still remains, Apple have massaged the Ego of many via advertising and functionality creating this walled garden.
Russia telling 13 mostly US tech companies has already been done by the EU with servers having to be located in the EU, so the EU has led the way on that issue apart from the obvious US data gathering in the first place by building the services and tech!
To me its just survival of the fittest of entities and whether cultures/country's are now holding back some of these entities which can then come back and bite the culture and country into non existence. When is an action a Zerohedge?
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#424In a just world, Israel should suffer sanctions for sheltering what is basically a criminal enterprise.
Trade sanctions? What are you proposing?
Clearly he's an anti-semite. /s
Any country that engages in such heinous practices needs sanctions. We need to stop sheltering the Israeli government and hold them accountable for their international crimes.
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#425It is great to see this happen. It's also fascinating that the crux of the Apple's case against NSO hinges on NSO engineers that accepted iCloud's terms and conditions. From related NYT article: > The sample of Pegasus gave Apple a forensic understanding of how Pegasus worked. The company found that NSO’s engineers had created more than 100 fake Apple IDs to carry out their attacks. In the process of creating those a…
I guess they haven't done this, but isn't this trivially mitigated by hiring someone to create the accounts, outside of the US entirely, in a jurisdiction where T&C violation doesn't mean anything? Especially if the accounts are needed in bulk, where it makes sense not just to work around the legal arguments but simply economically.
They presumably created the accounts in Israel in any case. It doesn’t matter though, because they’re being sued in the United States. Apple is a US company, and the EULA says that disputes will be resolved according to California law, so according to US law, Apple can sue NSO in California. The jurisdiction where NSO (or their designee) agreed to the EULA isn’t important because contracts have two parties, and Apple is in the US.
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#426Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Apple believes privacy is a fundamental human right, and security is a constant focus for teams across the company. This in the press release. It is missing the bit ”except in China.”
For the uninitiated: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/17/technology/ap...
Who's going to pay to read an article that slings dirt on one of the world's largest and most privacy-respecting companies?
> Special offer: Get unlimited access for $1 a week.
No thanks. They truly are the failing New York Times.
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#427Ellsworth is a personal hero of mine - incredibly smart, wildly talented and has a real vision for this space. All that being said, it's a nightmare of a space which is why I don't think there's been a big funding event for Tilt5. "Meta View" was an AR company that raised $75mil, had a star studded list of VR/AR technology folks, only ever shipped a couple thousand units and now is defunct. Magic Leap raised $3.5 Bil…
Wrong thread? Edit: I guess it is for Tilt-5 Was Magical [1], I copied your reply over there. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29317390
Thanks, too many tabs open.
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#428In a just world, Israel should suffer sanctions for sheltering what is basically a criminal enterprise.
what is a "just" world?
A world where western nations haven't formed an international cabal of gang stalkers which silence oppositional countries that refuse to surrender their natural resources or exploit their populations.
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#429Every single individual that has ever worked for NSO in any capacity, should be treated as an extremely serious security threat…
Employ these psychotic assholes at your own risk.
Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware
#430It is great to see this happen. It's also fascinating that the crux of the Apple's case against NSO hinges on NSO engineers that accepted iCloud's terms and conditions. From related NYT article: > The sample of Pegasus gave Apple a forensic understanding of how Pegasus worked. The company found that NSO’s engineers had created more than 100 fake Apple IDs to carry out their attacks. In the process of creating those a…
Were those engineers authorized to act on NSO's behalf? If I sign an agreement with Apple on behalf of , even as, let's say, an intern at that FAANG company, Apple should probably sue me, not the FAANG.
Probably, there are shades of grey in this sort of thing, but that’s usually for low-level employees agreeing to stuff wildly out of their responsibilities. For engineers agreeing to the EULA for a service that they use as part of their job, the court will probably agree that is sufficient for this lawsuit, even if NSO has policies that notionally should have prevented the engineers from agreeing to the EULA.
Also, if they weren’t, then NSO presumably violated the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act by accessing Apple’s services and systems without prior permission. Maybe that nixes Apple’s jurisdiction argument for this lawsuit, but Apple can also sue for criminal damages, and is presumably entitled to do so in their home jurisdiction since that’s where they exist and so that’s where they suffered the damages. And I think Apple notes this also in the lawsuit.