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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#871

Post by hoseja »

burntsushi wrote: post #854
raxxorrax wrote: post #846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much dislike COCs and overbearing moderation teams in open source communities. Good on you that you didn't publicize anything, that is probably the hardest for you than for anyone else. The Rust leadership doesn't make a good impression to be honest. I like the language itself but it isn't really an open source community I would want to engage in aside from the technical aspects (my involvement is limited in a…

My views on Codes of Conduct are pretty nuanced, and frankly, I learned a long time ago that the Internet cannot handle nuance. I was and still am an enthusiastic supporter of Rust's CoC, but you'll also notice that none of my personal projects have a CoC in them. So from that alone, you might at least surmise that I don't necessarily think CoCs are a universally good idea (or more precisely, "worth it") in literally…

I just went to askhistorians and the front page has no un-deleted answers as far as I can tell. So, utterly dead community that only had a limited time in the spotlight, supported by unsustainable heroic effort of unpaid volunteers.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#872

Post by monopoledance »

setr wrote: post #765
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible that there were CoC violations that they were not able to moderate, that the actions available to them were limited (e.g., they would have initiated a ban but they were not able to ban a core team member), that a core team member intervened to prevent effective moderation, or that the core team prevented the mod team from being able to access official core team channels in order to moderate. It's not…

> IMO, it would be strange to make a moderation team the highest authority in an organizational structure. I don't really agree with their demand to be the ultimate authority over everyone. I think it makes sense, scoped to their domain. Eg a security team can’t do their jobs effectively if they can’t apply their policies to the C O or if C O can arbitrarily undo it — security needs to have the last say on security p…

Agree. What you want is a distribution of power like you got with modern, democratic state systems. As long as the moderation team is not an absolute power, I don't see an issue. If e.g. the COC is meant to be strictly applicable to everyone, then it needs to be enforceable for everyone.

Personally, I think absolute power hierarchies will sooner or later bring out the worst in people, attract bad personalities, no matter the appeal of a tale about leadership and ruthless decision making or whatever. Checks and balances will prevent things from starting to rot. A good foundation likely needs the expenses, work, "ineffectivity" of a thoughtful/elaborate distribution of power.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#873

Post by hoseja »

teakettle42 wrote: post #715
nabakin wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your contribution burntsushi. I'm sorry it has come to this.

Thanking the political commissars? I’m glad to see them resign, and I hope open source can ultimately route around the unearned power grab that the “CoC” movement represents.

Actually this time it's the opposite. The moderators' refusal to elaborate unfortunately lends itself to your position and it was my knee-jerk reaction too until I found out the conjunctured details.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#874

Post by monopoledance »

mzs wrote: post #722
iamed2 wrote: post #84

There are two statements here regarding things that have happened: > the Core Team placing themselves unaccountable to anyone but themselves > we have been unable to enforce the Rust Code of Conduct to the standards the community expects of us and to the standards we hold ourselves to It's possible that there were CoC violations that they were not able to moderate, that the actions available to them were limited (e.g…

The same mod team member is strongly implying elsewhere that such a potential violation did occur: >burntsushi ripgrep · rust 31 points 2 hours ago >If we had an answer to your implied question it will necessarily reveal things (via obvious logical inferences) that we carefully avoided revealing in our statement. https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...

On a side note, I absolutely love the Reddit Rust community. It's somehow devoid of all the anger, loaded harshness of pretty much any other subreddit or HN. So fucking respectful and friendly there. (At least, every time I visited.) I can only assume rustaceans are generally better people! Hanging out there is like a resort within the internet. Please, if you go there leave your edgy internet persona behind, but bring your bathing suit and a tasty cocktail, instead - enjoy life and programming.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#875

Post by tialaramex »

BoorishBears wrote: post #863
tialaramex wrote: post #836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked you for some example rules, and you provided some > Rules about identifiers for example, no shadowing, explicit typing only, no unused declarations etc. #![forbid(clippy::shadow_reuse)] ... is a Clippy lint denying shadowing to re-use variables. There are a couple more Clippy lints to deny other types of shadowing. Whether all, some or none of these are actually a good idea depends whether your goal is to jus…

So you're saying for two of the three arbitrary rules I mentioned you need additional tooling for analysis... sure sounds like my initial point. But that's not even the point. > If anything I'd say the contrary is true, people overestimate what MISRA achieves, big chunks of it could be summarised as "Don't do things that are obviously a terrible idea". This is exactly what I mean. You're missing the point of MISRA if…

> So you're saying for two of the three arbitrary rules I mentioned you need additional tooling for analysis

Sure, if you consider Clippy "additional tooling" for Rust.

As I understand it, MISRA rules (those which are clearly decidable) are also not enforced by the compiler but instead require a separate toolchain, and not one that's supplied by default with your compiler either.

> But that's not even the point. > [...] MISRA is often for life or death

It's far from clear whether MIRSA is "life or death". Some MISRA rules correlate well to serious programming mistakes, most not so much, but they do pad the MISRA ruleset which is commercially important. There have been real studies about this, they don't come away with the conclusion you seem to expect.

> It might be "obviously terrible" stuff, but very excellent developers end up doing it anyways sometimes, that's just being human.

This is half true. There are things that are a bad idea, which are easy in C and so real people will do them, and a few of these are caught by MISRA rules. None of those things is easy (many aren't even possible) to do in modern languages. Or indeed, in Ada. MISRA is a band aid on a hand C programmers have put through a band saw. "Let's not use C" is a better fix than "Let's use MISRA".

I mentioned the value of assignment as an example, clearly assignment shouldn't have a value, it doesn't in Ada, and it doesn't in Rust, or Swift. When your hypothetical "just human" developer tries to use the value of an assignment in C that works but in these other languages it won't compile. Whereas in C we need MISRA rules to forbid this bad idea.

Let's try another one. MISRA forbids declaring variables in the body of a switch. You can't do anything similar in languages like Rust or Ada because it's crazy. Nobody does it in C either, but they could and so MISRA forbids it just in case. But once again, MISRA isn't adding any real value here (except to tool sellers) by telling people not to do things that aren't done.

I can't speak to any of the "random ISO standards". To the extent they're trying to force C into being a reasonable language to write safety critical software it seems like a waste of time to me. If they're mostly about Software Engineering then that doesn't lose applicability when you switch to a better language.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#876

Post by burntsushi »

hoseja wrote: post #871
burntsushi wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My views on Codes of Conduct are pretty nuanced, and frankly, I learned a long time ago that the Internet cannot handle nuance. I was and still am an enthusiastic supporter of Rust's CoC, but you'll also notice that none of my personal projects have a CoC in them. So from that alone, you might at least surmise that I don't necessarily think CoCs are a universally good idea (or more precisely, "worth it") in literally…

I just went to askhistorians and the front page has no un-deleted answers as far as I can tell. So, utterly dead community that only had a limited time in the spotlight, supported by unsustainable heroic effort of unpaid volunteers.

I don't know what you're talking about. There's one right here[1]. I've been reading that subreddit almost daily for years. I still do. It's not even remotely dead.

[1] - https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/r0en25/what_...

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#877

Post by styluss »

monopoledance wrote: post #874
mzs wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same mod team member is strongly implying elsewhere that such a potential violation did occur: >burntsushi ripgrep · rust 31 points 2 hours ago >If we had an answer to your implied question it will necessarily reveal things (via obvious logical inferences) that we carefully avoided revealing in our statement. https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...

On a side note, I absolutely love the Reddit Rust community. It's somehow devoid of all the anger, loaded harshness of pretty much any other subreddit or HN. So fucking respectful and friendly there. (At least, every time I visited.) I can only assume rustaceans are generally better people! Hanging out there is like a resort within the internet. Please, if you go there leave your edgy internet persona behind, but bri…

FYI r/rust also has a mod team

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#878

Post by M2Ys4U »

na85 wrote: post #867
M2Ys4U wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone explain why the development of a computer programming language needs "mod teams" and other stuff? >I don't use Rust; does Rust aspire to also be a social network or something? Because this development is done by people . Those people need to communicate and coordinate in an effective way, including with people outside of the immediate development effort (i.e. not just writing code).

C++ and Fortran are in active development, but to the best of my knowledge have neither "mod teams" nor the heightened level of drama that Rust seems to attract.

> C++ and Fortran are in active development, but to the best of my knowledge have neither "mod teams" nor the heightened level of drama that Rust seems to attract.

I don't know exactly how Fortran is developed, but C++ developed at the ISO which has its own flavour of bureaucracy.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I also don't think that C++ has its own - sanctioned - community fora like Rust does.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#879

Post by monopoledance »

styluss wrote: post #877
monopoledance wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a side note, I absolutely love the Reddit Rust community. It's somehow devoid of all the anger, loaded harshness of pretty much any other subreddit or HN. So fucking respectful and friendly there. (At least, every time I visited.) I can only assume rustaceans are generally better people! Hanging out there is like a resort within the internet. Please, if you go there leave your edgy internet persona behind, but bri…

FYI r/rust also has a mod team

I am sure they are doing a stellar job I am thankful for. However, you see very little [deleted] around, or many down-voted comments. I think it's really the community to praise, and their practiced tone and aspirations.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#880

Post by na85 »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #878
na85 wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C++ and Fortran are in active development, but to the best of my knowledge have neither "mod teams" nor the heightened level of drama that Rust seems to attract.

> C++ and Fortran are in active development, but to the best of my knowledge have neither "mod teams" nor the heightened level of drama that Rust seems to attract. I don't know exactly how Fortran is developed, but C++ developed at the ISO which has its own flavour of bureaucracy. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I also don't think that C++ has its own - sanctioned - community fora like Rust does.

>And correct me if I'm wrong, but I also don't think that C++ has its own - sanctioned - community fora like Rust does.

That seems to be the rub of it, yes. Rust has aspirations of being its own social network in addition to being a programming language.

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