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The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

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Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#141

Post by splitstud »

throwawaygh wrote: post #58
pdmccormick wrote: post #32

Has anyone ever stopped to consider the ethical question of applying the latest unproven fads of educational theory to unwitting students? Ideally before large scale rollouts? As someone who grew up during a tumultuous time for the public education system in Ontario, Canada, it felt like ever year or two whole curriculums were thrown out and the latest and greatest "cutting edge" approaches and fads were foisted upon…

"Great Books in Small Seminars" is one of the older educational models [1], and is itself in the tradition of one of the oldest approaches to education in history. This project doesn't seem substantially different from other Great Books approaches, except in that it doesn't charge tuition. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_books#Program

Right. It is remarkable that anyone would think of this method as a fad.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#142

Post by chiefofgxbxl »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #113
iskander wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a joke about how universities have become administratively bloated and primarily function as a very expensive resort community for 18-22 year olds. To "compete" with each other, universities hire increase numbers of administrators whose job is to build out a more complete "college experience", including fancier gyms catering to modern exercise trends (aka climbing walls).

> universities have become administratively bloated and primarily function as a very expensive resort community for 18-22 year olds The worse thing is that people seem to really enjoy it. Every time I have a discussion on it with someone I inevitably hear arguments like “it was such a formative experience”, “university is not only for studying” and so on. It’s really crazy that a huge part of the population is convin…

What's genuinely odd is that universities offer something of value that towns and (small) cities should be able to: providing anyone (not just students) a human experience.

I do agree with you that there are societal norms to dump large sums of money into college, but will also point out that many of the things people enjoy from their college experience are things that are - in my judgment - becoming increasingly difficult to find in American society: namely, being able to form social connections that are deeper than the measly platitudes and shallow experience of water-cooler conversations at work.

The fact that colleges are able to command tens of thousands of dollars per year should tell us something about what their campuses are offering that general society and its structure is unable to provide.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#143

Post by Turing_Machine »

theonething wrote: post #140
Turing_Machine wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around. Some countries still ha…

> often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing This sounds very suspect to me. Do you have any sources for this assertion? I've never heard of a church requiring any form of support, tithe etc to be a member or at all. I've been attending church and have been a member of several for 20+ years.

Just a quick, non-exhaustive web search:

http://ascensionfairview.org/contribute/parish-membership/ (Orthodox) $450/year

https://www.templeshalom.org/dues (Jewish) $3,950/year (based on 2 adult household)

https://www.buddhistchurch.org/membership (Buddhist) $44/month

https://beulahbaptist.org/flc/membership/ (Baptist) $30/month

As I said, few churches (or others houses of worship) will charge you a fee for attending services (other than the plate coming around), but if you want a say in church governance you usually have to pony up, either with formal dues or a less-formal expectation that you will provide significant financial support.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you.

Have you actually been involved in church governance in the churches you've attended?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#144

Post by zdragnar »

theonething wrote: post #140
Turing_Machine wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around. Some countries still ha…

> often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing This sounds very suspect to me. Do you have any sources for this assertion? I've never heard of a church requiring any form of support, tithe etc to be a member or at all. I've been attending church and have been a member of several for 20+ years.

Tithing 10% comes from the laws of moses in the old testament, and most denominations agree that providing some material support to the church is an obligation, but dont formally specify the extent. Catholic parishes often recommend 5% to the church, and 5% to the poor / needy through one means or another.

OTOH, a nearby Unitarian / mega-style church made signing a form with your annual salary and a pledge to tithe a minimum percentage a formal requirement for membership. I heard they were active in enforcing it, but never bothered joining.

I.e. see https://www.uua.org/finance/fundraising/generosity/185418.sh...

Note under the "collection plate" header that they suggest you give in a way that has your name on it so it can count toward your pledge- they definitely track individual tithes.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#145

Post by rwbt »

glial wrote: post #61

Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments. I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures. Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion. Consider the possibility that…

Never heard of SJC. Reading about it and their curriculum makes me happy and also jealous ;)

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#146

Post by usefulcat »

justahuman74 wrote: post #106
wfhpw wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10% of income is the standard

That's just enormous, seems like a strong disincentive to join

I’m pretty sure that’s more of an aspirational goal than a hard requirement at many churches. Though it frequently (usually?) is also pre tax, not post.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#147

Post by barry-cotter »

justahuman74 wrote: post #106
wfhpw wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10% of income is the standard

That's just enormous, seems like a strong disincentive to join

That's kind of the point. If you value a thing you'll be willing to pay for it.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#148

Post by jacobolus »

WalterBright wrote: post #26

> Since education rather than money is calling the shots, we have the freedom to ask unheard-of questions. Who is paying the bills, then? > no grades There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

> I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

The Wikipedia page about you says: “[Walter Bright] taught himself computer programming from the type-in programs in BASIC Computer Games” citing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28574770 as a source.

Was there a series of formal tests and grades involved there? Or do you disagree with your own claim that you learned computer programming from that untested, ungraded experience? Presumably most of your expert knowledge of compilers comes from practical experience implementing them yourself and independently studying other people’s implementations rather than from taking formal tests in graded university courses.

Just as you learned programming by satisfying your own curiosity, other people manage to learn about e.g. differential geometry, materials chemistry, entomology, Mesopotamian history, meteorology, electrical engineering, comparative linguistics, sports journalism, fine-art photography, pie baking, ... by similar self-directed experiences.

A formal education full of tests and grades can provide helpful structure for many students, but it is neither the most efficient nor the most effective way to get passionate students to learn and explore for themselves.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#149

Post by least »

chiefofgxbxl wrote: post #142
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> universities have become administratively bloated and primarily function as a very expensive resort community for 18-22 year olds The worse thing is that people seem to really enjoy it. Every time I have a discussion on it with someone I inevitably hear arguments like “it was such a formative experience”, “university is not only for studying” and so on. It’s really crazy that a huge part of the population is convin…

What's genuinely odd is that universities offer something of value that towns and (small) cities should be able to: providing anyone (not just students) a human experience. I do agree with you that there are societal norms to dump large sums of money into college, but will also point out that many of the things people enjoy from their college experience are things that are - in my judgment - becoming increasingly dif…

> The fact that colleges are able to command tens of thousands of dollars per year should tell us something about what their campuses are offering that general society and its structure is unable to provide.

They provide a piece of paper at the end that puts you an edge up above the people that cannot attend for one reason or another in the job market, which is going to be a part of your life for the next 40 years or so.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#150

Post by andrew_ »

theonething wrote: post #140
Turing_Machine wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around. Some countries still ha…

> often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing This sounds very suspect to me. Do you have any sources for this assertion? I've never heard of a church requiring any form of support, tithe etc to be a member or at all. I've been attending church and have been a member of several for 20+ years.

I'm in my 40s and attended a Baptist Church in my youth that required formal members to tithe. It was the primary reason my parents stopped taking us there.

> Do you have any sources for this assertion?

Don't be that person. Take or leave the anecdote, but don't make an asinine request of evidence for something clearly anecdotal.

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