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Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

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Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#301
post #265
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"NSO can be sued under California law because they accepted the EULA" seems like a mechanical, strict, pedantic application of law though.

How does that seem pedantic? It's incredibly straightforward. On the other hand, creating some kind of convoluted, contrived paper trail to claim that mysterious third parties were the ones to have physically pressed the "Accept" button on your 100 fake accounts and so you didn't even know there was a EULA seems kind of like it might actually be fraud.

I don’t see how this differs much from a common “clean room” reverse engineering strategy where one set of engineers accepts the eula and then writes down in excruciating detail exactly how the target item works, then a second set of engineers that have never seen the item in question (or accepted a eula) takes these detailed writings and uses them to reverse engineer the item in question. (A mere description of a device or software is not protected)

This is standard practice at large companies when reverse engineering chips, devices and software and seems very similar to the above eula argument.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#302

>make products/services more secure >sue others to make them stop trying to hack your products/services Chooses the second one. I'm pretty sure this is just a PR stunt for Apple to try to appeal and brand themselves as "oh, we stand for security" and all the other bullshit.

Both is the best option. Unfortunately there is just about nothing you can do to prevent a government sponsored org from building exploits from scratch to target certain individuals. Apple is doing pretty well at protecting the average person from mass malware like we see on windows and outdated androids.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#304
post #262
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sending the malware via iMessage, assuming the flaw was part of iMessage and not standard SMS.

But if they did that, Apple wouldn't need the EULA because then they could throw the CFAA at them.

Does the CFAA apply to an Isreali firm sending a text message from Isreal?

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace "Apple" by any traditional car company and you should immediately become concerned. Shouldn't a car company have absolute, one-sided control over the cars they sell? Like should the car stop working if you agreed to obey the speed limit but then sped? Or stop working if you didn't use their branded fluids?

Except, as I understand it, this case is not about a EULA on the iPhones themselves, but rather on Apple's services . They agreed to the EULA on the services, then, in part, abused their access to those services to hack into other people's iPhones.

The fact that the modern world exists in an corporate-owned, proprietary cloud, versus the era of personal computers & personally-owned systems, is greatly greatly greatly confusing. I don't fully well know how to handle this great confusion. But ultimately, the trend of all rights being reserved by the megacorp is, ultimately, a vulgar anti-human anathema which we must shake off. Humanity must be allowed to pick up our microscopes & magnifying glasses, to peer in, to meddle. No legal contract preventing the natural sciences is ethical nor godly.

I have no idea how we do that. Perhaps decoupling the data-processing services from the data-holding entity might be a possible frontier. One could imagine being able to keep their identity, their core systems & datum wherever they want, & to convert Apple into a mere processor of those personal systems. That way we might not know what Apple is doing, but we at least can watch their black box act against us.

In general, trying to draw further extenuating circumstances, trying to say "except except except" is simply not ok. The phones we carry are part & parcel to their many services, in this weird conflux of computing. It reduces basic core human integrity to be denied access, to be rebuffed by EULA from understanding & witnessing & probing into these core techno-vessels we navigate about with. These mere technicalities presented, that our homes happen to be located inside Apple data-centers, is to me uninteresting & unimportant in the moral, ethical, humanistic & religious discussion and/or reckoning we have fallen into.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#306
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>0) The defendant's can be sued under California law because they accepted the EULA The Court has personal jurisdiction over Defendants because, on information and belief, they created more than one hundred Apple IDs to carry out their attacks and also agreed to Apple’s iCloud Terms and Conditions (“iCloud Terms”), including a mandatory and enforceable forum selection and exclusive jurisdiction clause that constitute…

Nerds always want to interpret the law in some strict pedantic fashion, but in practice this is almost never how it works. Law is not applied stupidly or mechanically, you can't fashion yourself some ad hoc workaround unless you're extremely certain about what you're doing, preferably with a mountain of precedent behind you.

Speaking as someone who’s been on the unfortunate wrong end of it, the law is applied stupidly and mechanically. All the time. That’s the default. The judge will go to great pains to super pedantically apply the rule of the law, regardless of common sense and believe it or not in most cases also regardless of common sense.

As it should be. It doesn’t always work well for all circumstances, but we don’t have a better system

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sits so unwell with me, gives such limitless tyrannical & dictatorial control to a company. > As much as people might look at this and think Apple is being heavy-handed, it comes down to the fact that iCloud, iOS, and the App Store are their IP and they can (within legal limits) set whatever terms they please. Agreed. That's exactly what it seems like. And that sounds like immoral, unjustifiable, sickening hell.…

> Agreed. That's exactly what it seems like. And that sounds like immoral, unjustifiable, sickening hell. That Apple gets to hold all the cards, no one else on the planet gets any say in how a device might be used. I'm not a big proponent of IP, but you're basically saying it is immoral, unjustifiable, and sickening as hell that Apple enforces the rules that Apple wants on Apple products/services, which were created…

> Who should be making the rules if not the creator and maintainer of the product/service?

The customer? Thats the whole point of a market

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US based NSO property, practically speaking Nope. Not only does Israel have an extradition treaty with the U.S., their civil systems are quite tightly linked. [1] https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/07-110-Isra...

Extradition has next to nothing to do with a civil EULA suit.

> Extradition has next to nothing to do with a civil EULA suit

The following has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread. If NSO blows off the EULA suit, they'll be held in contempt of court. That tends to escalate into the type of thing for which one can be extradited.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#309
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"target them"? What are you proposing?

Ban them and their immediate family from everywhere: iCloud, Google, Instagram, Github, Cloudflare, Spotify, Steam, etc. Make them explain their kids that they can't play games on Xbox or listen to music on Spotify because their daddy is a terrorist.

Terrorist? Really? I think one can argue that they've likely saved many, many lives.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#310
post #7

It is great to see this happen. It's also fascinating that the crux of the Apple's case against NSO hinges on NSO engineers that accepted iCloud's terms and conditions. From related NYT article: > The sample of Pegasus gave Apple a forensic understanding of how Pegasus worked. The company found that NSO’s engineers had created more than 100 fake Apple IDs to carry out their attacks. In the process of creating those a…

Were those engineers authorized to act on NSO's behalf? If I sign an agreement with Apple on behalf of , even as, let's say, an intern at that FAANG company, Apple should probably sue me, not the FAANG.

No, the FAANG is on the hook.

I know this, because I did exactly that, and was given a right good talkin’ to, by our General Counsel.

If anything lawsuit-worthy had come from it, then I suspect that I would have gotten more than just a lecture.

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