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The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

hedgehogreview.com

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Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#71

Post by WalterBright »

Closi wrote: post #50
WalterBright wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> business model Even if one has no intention of making a profit, the accounting still has to be done, the books still have to balance, and there has to be enough revenue to cover the expenses.

Sure, you have to account for things (especially if you are a registered not for profit), but as long as Donations >= Expenses you don't really have to worry all that much about a 'business model'. In fact, it often happens in reverse for these sorts of clubs/societies - Because the base expenses are very low (a £11.99 zoom account and to start with it is volunteer-led) rather than requiring enough revenue to cover e…

If you are accepting donations, and not keeping books, the tax man may come calling.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#72

Post by LaMarseillaise »

WalterBright wrote: post #35
thelettere wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you aren't everyone. There are already a number of colleges and universities that don't use grades, and many have been around for a half century or more and are among the most prestigious liberal arts institutions in the country. But maybe you're right and it's all a sham.

> Maybe you aren't everyone. I didn't say "all students". > a number of colleges and universities that don't use grades An example of a prestigious university that doesn't use grades would help your case.

It was implicit in your statement:

> Without pressure from grades, [students] won't do the work of learning.

If it were qualified with ‘many’ students, there would be no such confusion. Your comment, as-is, is trivially falsified by the example of any auto-didact.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#74

Post by colpabar »

glial wrote: post #61

Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments. I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures. Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion. Consider the possibility that…

I don’t understand all the negativity either. The article I read described a group of people who were genuinely interested in learning, so much so that the organizers do it for free. Sure there are no grades or degrees, but who cares? The education is the point, and really it’s the only point.

It feels like a lot of the comments boil down to “well my education was different so I can’t take this seriously.”

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#75

Post by WalterBright »

dqpb wrote: post #69
WalterBright wrote: post #26

> Since education rather than money is calling the shots, we have the freedom to ask unheard-of questions. Who is paying the bills, then? > no grades There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

> Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. Then why do you suppose people read books in their free time?

How many people do you know who read textbooks in their spare time? And what percentage of them do the exercises in the book?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#76

Post by wahern »

glial wrote: post #61

Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments. I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures. Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion. Consider the possibility that…

I had a law school professor who attended St. John's for undergraduate, and while most professors at my law school tried (more than many other law schools, AFAIU) to stick to the Socratic Method, the two classes I attended of his were by far the most engaging on account of his proficiency with and commitment to the method. While most professors' biases, including their politics, tended to bleed through to some degree, it was only after I graduated and took the time to read over some of his own published scholarly works that I realized he held some diametrically opposed political and legal views to my own.

I also had the privilege of attending some Great Books courses at my high school and always regretted not applying to St. John's for undergraduate. I would like to attend some discussions organized by The Great Books Council of San Francisco (https://www.greatbooksncal.org/), though it's difficult to find time.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#77

Post by WalterBright »

LaMarseillaise wrote: post #72
WalterBright wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe you aren't everyone. I didn't say "all students". > a number of colleges and universities that don't use grades An example of a prestigious university that doesn't use grades would help your case.

It was implicit in your statement: > Without pressure from grades, [students] won't do the work of learning. If it were qualified with ‘many’ students, there would be no such confusion. Your comment, as-is, is trivially falsified by the example of any auto-didact.

That's not how the English language works. The reason the adjective "all" exists is strong evidence that when one says students (plural) one is not saying "all" students.

If one meant "all" students, one would say "all students", "students without exception", "100% of students", "every student", etc.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#78

Post by marginalia_nu »

WalterBright wrote: post #26

> Since education rather than money is calling the shots, we have the freedom to ask unheard-of questions. Who is paying the bills, then? > no grades There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

> There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

How much of that supposed "learning" is actually retained though? Could these pass the same test a year later without the opportunity to study for it?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#79

Post by throwawaygh »

glial wrote: post #61

Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments. I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures. Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion. Consider the possibility that…

> Like a bible study, but without the bible.

Yeah, exactly. Or hackerspaces. Or OSS. Or presenting at DEFCON. (And, yes, these folks will include this project in their tenure/promotion cases and therefore indirectly benefit professionally even if they don't charge just like in the cases above.)

My only real "criticism" of this model is that the people doing this work shouldn't shy away from asking for "tithes"... humanities professors are criminally under-paid and plenty of folks would pay to attend these sorts of seminars (in the same way that most people tithe at church).

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