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The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

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Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#41

Post by zepto »

_lqaf wrote: post #28
zepto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not that it’s dangerous. It’s that it has been tried and shown not to work. It certainly merits a history lesson and a post-mortem discussion, but that’s about it.

This is an oft-repeated nonsense line to dismiss some really interesting philosophy. Marx was not writing a plan of action, and all that has been proved is that authoritarian assholes are assholes. (I take if you also think Adam Smith should be discarded because parts of "Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations" doesn't map well to modern capitalism?) Here's a real test of a free thinker. Are you willing to read "dangerou…

> Marx was not writing a plan of action, and all that has been proved is that authoritarian assholes are assholes.

No - what has been proved is that Marx’s theories don’t limit the effects of the machinations of assholes.

If there is one thing a political system should do, it is this.

> I take if you also think Adam Smith should be discarded because parts of "Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations" doesn't map well to modern capitalism?)

I don’t think it should be discarded, but I do think that we know enough about the problems of capitalism that we shouldn’t be claiming that Adam smith has written a prescription for our times.

> Here's a real test of a free thinker. Are you willing to read "dangerous ideas" for yourself? Or do you just allow yourself to be steered by what you hear people repeat?

Have you considered that free thinking means doing your own thinking? That means being able to recognize when an ideology is past its sell by date and not fetishizing a particular historical figure as being uniquely insightful.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#42

Post by hereforphone »

pdmccormick wrote: post #32

Has anyone ever stopped to consider the ethical question of applying the latest unproven fads of educational theory to unwitting students? Ideally before large scale rollouts? As someone who grew up during a tumultuous time for the public education system in Ontario, Canada, it felt like ever year or two whole curriculums were thrown out and the latest and greatest "cutting edge" approaches and fads were foisted upon…

They've been applying the unproven fads of educational theory to unwitting students for decades or more.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#43

Post by rahimnathwani »

Closi wrote: post #37
rahimnathwani wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"this is a not-for-profit organisation, so 'business model' is a bit of a loaded term" This particular not-for-profit may have no business model, i.e. no revenue outside of donations. But there are many not-for-profit entities that rely on services/fees (as opposed to donations) to fund their operations. For many of these non-profits, the main things that distinguish them from for-profit companies is that: A) The fou…

Let's not grow this thing into something bigger than it is - it's effectively a nice book club focussed on philosophy, and which had 115 readers as of June last year. It looks lovely, and looks like they have great growth, but let's not blow it out of proportion.

My comment was not about The Catherine Project.

I was responding to part of your comment, which seemed to assert that "not-for-profit" is inconsistent with "business model".

I pointed out that many non-profits do have business models. But I was careful to point out that this may not apply to The Catherine Project ("This particular not-for-profit may have no business model, i.e. no revenue outside of donations.").

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#44

Post by stagger87 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #33
WalterBright wrote: post #26

> Since education rather than money is calling the shots, we have the freedom to ask unheard-of questions. Who is paying the bills, then? > no grades There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

Of the things you learned under pressure of exams and grades, how many of them do you actually remember? That is, did you learn for long enough to pass the test, or did you learn ?

Is it controversial/surprising to say that one would learn more from studying than not studying?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#45

Post by jancsika »

WalterBright wrote: post #26

> Since education rather than money is calling the shots, we have the freedom to ask unheard-of questions. Who is paying the bills, then? > no grades There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

> I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

There's a reason a lot of first-year grad students end up dropping out. :)

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#46

Post by sodality2 »

WalterBright wrote: post #26

> Since education rather than money is calling the shots, we have the freedom to ask unheard-of questions. Who is paying the bills, then? > no grades There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

> There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

We call this pumping-and-dumping. You pump the info into your brain then dump it on the test, then you forget it. This is not really meant for learning.

The type of student that won't learn unless strict deadlines and grades are placed on them is a very different type of student than one that will learn more with less deadlines and grades.

Take away deadlines and grades, and you will divide the class into two groups: that which genuinely learns the information better without deadlines and grades, and that which will slack off without strict deadlines and grades. The education system is (or should be!) designed to push students into the former category.

Unfortunately "desire to learn" is incredibly difficult to measure, let alone objectively, hence the standardized testing (you never get complaints about favoritism if everyone gets the same test).

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#47

Post by _lqaf »

zepto wrote: post #41
_lqaf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an oft-repeated nonsense line to dismiss some really interesting philosophy. Marx was not writing a plan of action, and all that has been proved is that authoritarian assholes are assholes. (I take if you also think Adam Smith should be discarded because parts of "Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations" doesn't map well to modern capitalism?) Here's a real test of a free thinker. Are you willing to read "dangerou…

> Marx was not writing a plan of action, and all that has been proved is that authoritarian assholes are assholes. No - what has been proved is that Marx’s theories don’t limit the effects of the machinations of assholes. If there is one thing a political system should do, it is this. > I take if you also think Adam Smith should be discarded because parts of "Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations" doesn't map well to mo…

> what has been proved is that Marx’s theories don’t limit the effects of the machinations of assholes

What a weird test. No system of government does, and Marx was not writing a system of government. I guess it is time to throw out all political theory, though.

> that we shouldn’t be claiming that Adam smith has written a prescription

Funny, the people making that claim about Marx are equally wrong, and yet you want to discard all of it.

> means doing your own thinking

...Which apparently can only lead to your conclusion? That's hilarious.

> and not fetishizing

I'm not the one with the fetish here.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#48

Post by ksdale »

derekjdanserl wrote: post #17
barry-cotter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have interpretations of the Republic. Other people have different ones. Discussing them is the point.

It is not a mere coincidence that discussing Marx’s Capital is never the point. They are approximately equivalent in their influence on humanity, but only one of them offers a critique of the immediate situation.

You don't think anyone ever discusses Marx?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#50

Post by Closi »

WalterBright wrote: post #30
Closi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, two things: 1) It's not profit generating, this is a not-for-profit organisation, so 'business model' is a bit of a loaded term. 2) The practice of having clubs / social groups where members are encouraged to donate money to help with the running costs is pretty common, and is not typically considered begging. I help run a local theatre group which we fund with a whip-around with our members to assist with the…

> business model Even if one has no intention of making a profit, the accounting still has to be done, the books still have to balance, and there has to be enough revenue to cover the expenses.

Sure, you have to account for things (especially if you are a registered not for profit), but as long as Donations >= Expenses you don't really have to worry all that much about a 'business model'.

In fact, it often happens in reverse for these sorts of clubs/societies - Because the base expenses are very low (a £11.99 zoom account and to start with it is volunteer-led) rather than requiring enough revenue to cover expenses, you usually gather donations which let you spend money, and you don't spend money that hasn't already been donated. If less money gets donated, you can just slow down spending.

In terms of not for profits here we aren't talking about a company the size of Oxfam - we are talking about a reading group that has 12 volunteer hosts.

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