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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#861

Post by twic »

belval wrote: post #763
politician wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently? Linux, Amazon, “turbofish”. Between Oct 2018 and Oct 2021... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1635638400&dateRange=custom&...

Honestly I don't think this proves anything, change "Rust" for "Python", "Java", "C++" or even "Javascript" and you will get a similar number of results with Python being actually higher than Rust.

I tried Java. Most of the hits are on sentences like "slowed down dramatically", "changed dramatically", and "latency shifts dramatically under load". There are also:

"So, upon hearing that the .net foundation is spending all of its time generating stacks of bureaucracy and causing internal drama"

"Oracle provides RHEL build and it's pretty good. No CentOS drama, it's free and just works."

"I'd be surprised if you found any dramas with the language."

There's no actual drama. Until page 4, when i find:

"Completely a drama"

In an article about Rust.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#862

Post by twic »

blindmute wrote: post #805
ferdowsi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"

> avoid reputational damage In less censored circles, Rust has THE worst reputation of any programming language purely because of this kind of management. The entire reputation of Rust is "that language made by insane leftists... with some memory safety or something". I've never seen any language community with a worse reputation, including JS.

"less censored circles" is a wonderful euphemism for, i assume, some cave full of idiots.

Meanwhile, above ground, JavaScript, Ruby, Haskell, and Scala all have worse reputations than Rust.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#863

Post by BoorishBears »

tialaramex wrote: post #836
BoorishBears wrote: post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're understimating how far MISRA goes. Rules about identifiers for example, no shadowing, explicit typing only, no unused declarations etc. Rust might get the big stuff but MISRA is adhered to exactly in contexts where things that would be "nitpicky" or over-opinionated for a general use language improve safety. Pure Rust would never be a replacement for that without additional static analysis.

I asked you for some example rules, and you provided some > Rules about identifiers for example, no shadowing, explicit typing only, no unused declarations etc. #![forbid(clippy::shadow_reuse)] ... is a Clippy lint denying shadowing to re-use variables. There are a couple more Clippy lints to deny other types of shadowing. Whether all, some or none of these are actually a good idea depends whether your goal is to jus…

So you're saying for two of the three arbitrary rules I mentioned you need additional tooling for analysis... sure sounds like my initial point.

But that's not even the point.

> If anything I'd say the contrary is true, people overestimate what MISRA achieves, big chunks of it could be summarised as "Don't do things that are obviously a terrible idea".

This is exactly what I mean. You're missing the point of MISRA if you think that's an overestimation or just to make managers happy... MISRA is often for life or death, and it's not even going as far as the random ISO standards that end up applying on top of it in some domains. It might be "obviously terrible" stuff, but very excellent developers end up doing it anyways sometimes, that's just being human.

The ground work to even verify a Rust toolchain doesn't even exist, (the closest I could find is a WIP https://ferrous-systems.com/blog/sealed-rust-the-pitch/) so I'm guessing everyone forcing this is likely rolling their own setup of additional tools?

If you don't work on ABS controllers and you work at somewhere like Tesla where the bar for safety is a little lower in the name of using new shiny things, by all means use Rust. But I wouldn't do that in a million years. I simply don't buy that using established MISRA C tooling is less safe than rolling your own lint setup.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#864

Post by ksec »

belval wrote: post #763
politician wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently? Linux, Amazon, “turbofish”. Between Oct 2018 and Oct 2021... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1635638400&dateRange=custom&...

Honestly I don't think this proves anything, change "Rust" for "Python", "Java", "C++" or even "Javascript" and you will get a similar number of results with Python being actually higher than Rust.

I dont remember any drama on Python, Java, C++ or JS on HN.

But I remember a lot of drama on Ruby and Rust.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#866

Post by zemo »

vegai_ wrote: post #796
zemo wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the Rust code of conduct: https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct Can you provide an example of something in the code of conduct that you think makes people walk on eggshells?

The Rust community is famous for being friendly. This means that people who are not good at being friendly are being careful what they say there, or have left that space.

huh, my impression is that the Rust community is famous for being unfriendly.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#867

Post by na85 »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #838
na85 wrote: post #633

Can someone explain why the development of a computer programming language needs "mod teams" and other stuff? I don't use Rust; does Rust aspire to also be a social network or something? It seems to me, from my outsider's perspective, that Rust has a lot of bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake. The "teams" directory [0] has two pages worth of files, which I assume are sub-team membership lists? Good grief. [0] https://…

> Can someone explain why the development of a computer programming language needs "mod teams" and other stuff? >I don't use Rust; does Rust aspire to also be a social network or something? Because this development is done by people . Those people need to communicate and coordinate in an effective way, including with people outside of the immediate development effort (i.e. not just writing code).

C++ and Fortran are in active development, but to the best of my knowledge have neither "mod teams" nor the heightened level of drama that Rust seems to attract.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#868

Post by lenkite »

couchand wrote: post #165
capableweb wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't look like an internal Rust issue when the moderation team disappears while saying "If the Core Team says anything about us/the situation, be careful about trusting it without verifying first" in a very public venue. If they really wanted to keep it internal, it would require even less effort to just remove themselves from the moderation list with a "We resign" message without further detail.

They didn't send you a personal e-mail. They made a PR changing their team status to "alumni" and included the requisite justification in the PR message.

They also formally published this on Reddit.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#869

Post by lenkite »

Good. The Core Team can govern and mod themselves. This general mealy-mouthed complaint about "un-accountability" - with utterly no specifics given - can be crushed and dumped into the dustbin.

If you don't want to "publicize" it, then don't make a formal, public post on Reddit Rust - handle it internally.

If you want to publicize it, then have the courage to provide the specifics to the public.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#870

Post by klabb3 »

throwawaygh wrote: post #174
couchand wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's our industry that's getting old. You used to be able to start a big project like a compiler or a browser and have some hope of producing a functional result "organically" (for lack of a better word). But we've reached the point where we're no longer just scrabbling together hovels with scrap wood, we're trying to build the Pyramids or the Hoover Dam now. A few anonymous internet denizens are not going to be able…

Sure. And I dislike corporate BS but happily work in corporations as long as I can mostly get away with nothing but the most surface-level acknowledgment that the shit does indeed smell like roses. (And like 90+% of what HR enforces is mostly good anyways; pretending it's not a facade is often a small price to pay for the level of nonsense I'm shielded from) Again, I'm not even necessarily saying things should be dif…

Late to the party, but I strongly agree with your comments in this thread, based on similar experience in a corporate environment.

The weird paradox in this governance model is why we see so much fluff around the actual autocracy that - at the end of the day - is what matters. Why pay for HR, townhall events etc, etc, if in the end it doesn't matter?

I think the obvious reason is - ironically - making accountability optional, through selective enforcement. If you have an arbitrary and emotionally based strict set of rules, you can freely accuse practically anyone for breaking it, since the owners have last say anyway. As such, you can say "sorry, we had to let Tim go, because he violated policy" - and abracadabra, nobody is personally accountable. It's the woke equivalent of a firing squad.

In fact, if a process is not universal, but selective, it is just a power tool. And what's more attractive than a power tool? Simply throw process on people you dislike, and let the people you like through.

That's not to say there's some calculated malicious intent behind this. There are tons of people who genuinely think these systems are good and serve them, or people less privileged than them.

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